Improper PE Stamping on Plan Sets

[Phil Timmons]

Are any of you seeing this?

Most PV projects now require PE stamped prints for various city Plan Review and Permits. Many Utilities also require this.

Lately have been running across (a lot of) prints that are "Stamped" by clowns who are not State PEs, or not Electrical PEs -- but are stamping Electrical pages.

Are you all seeing any of this? I never bothered to check until one city called out on this.

Now that I am checking -- I am seeing a fair amount of this. How do you deal with it, if you do?

Thanks.

 

[petersonra]

Are they claiming to be PEs in some way but are not?

I don't think there is any law against just stamping a drawing.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Are they claiming to be PEs in some way but are not?

I don't think there is any law against just stamping a drawing.

In the recent case(s) -- it is Civil / Structural PEs stamping the Electrical.

Not allowed under the Engineering Practices Act. When directly caught, they seem to change this, and get them re-stamped.

So they KNOW what they are doing is not right. My concern gets involved in that the Electrical Pages are also often incompetent and wrong -- meaning otherwise simple projects get shut down while I have to check the site, visit with the city, and wind up drawing the Electrical Plan pages, myself.

On the business end of things, this adds costs to the jobs for work already paid for, and I think it may be shifting the PE Liability on to us.

 

[petersonra]

In the recent case(s) -- it is Civil / Structural PEs stamping the Electrical.

Not allowed under the Engineering Practices Act. When directly caught, they seem to change this, and get them re-stamped.

So they KNOW what they are doing is not right. My concern gets involved in that the Electrical Pages are also often incompetent and wrong -- meaning otherwise simple projects get shut down while I have to check the site, visit with the city, and wind up drawing the Electrical Plan pages, myself.

On the business end of things, this adds costs to the jobs for work already paid for, and I think it may be shifting the PE Liability on to us.

Are you an electrical PE? If so, why not just do the drawings yourself in the first place and put your seal on it.

One thing I think needs to be remembered is that there is a difference between sealed drawings and stamped drawings. Anyone can stamp a drawing.

 

[jaggedben]

Best solution is for the AHJs not to require engineering stamps for simple residential projects where the roof was recently built to code. Use checklists of minimum requirements instead.

Or put another way, I'm not seeing this because in my state 'most' PV projects don't require stamps.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Are you an electrical PE? If so, why not just do the drawings yourself in the first place and put your seal on it.

One thing I think needs to be remembered is that there is a difference between sealed drawings and stamped drawings. Anyone can stamp a drawing.

Generally stamped and signed. Sometimes pages show up (from Engineering Firms) without stamps, sometimes with stamps, sometimes stamped and signed (aka "sealed," right?) . . . however underlying it all they are often incompetent. And when I check the State Registry List, they are not even Electrical PEs.

Me -- Texas Master, and MSEE / BSEE. But not a PE. So I am allowed to "design" the work -- that we do -- but not hold out "Engineering Services" for us or others.

 

[jaggedben]

For systems that don't involve (e.g) a transformer or 3-phase balancing why does a solar project need an electrical engineer? What size systems are we talking about?

 

[Phil Timmons]

Best solution is for the AHJs not to require engineering stamps for simple residential projects where the roof was recently built to code. Use checklists of minimum requirements instead.

Or put another way, I'm not seeing this because in my state 'most' PV projects don't require stamps.

The Structure -- or Roof -- is yet another topic. That is STRUCTURAL / Civil PEs. -- separate PE Listing and Design.

The stuff we are running across is not even Electrically competent.

Background for whether stamps, etc are required can vary widely by cities, states, and local utilities.

 

[Phil Timmons]

For systems that don't involve (e.g) a transformer or 3-phase balancing why does a solar project need an electrical engineer? What size systems are we talking about?

Varies by city and utility.

For the Cities -- it typically starts with ANYTHING that is Structure (separate pages from Electrical). So then Electrical says -- yeah, us, too.

Many Utilities require it for equipment (Grid Tied) hooked into their Grid Operations.

 

[ggunn]

In the recent case(s) -- it is Civil / Structural PEs stamping the Electrical.

Not allowed under the Engineering Practices Act. When directly caught, they seem to change this, and get them re-stamped.

You are in Texas, are you not? In Texas a PE can stamp any document irrespective of discipline. Some AHJ's require an EE to stamp electrical drawings but it isn't a statewide requirement.

 

[Phil Timmons]

You are in Texas, are you not? In Texas a PE can stamp any document irrespective of discipline. Some AHJ's require an EE to stamp electrical drawings but it isn't a statewide requirement.

There is the competence issue and liability, no?

You are an EE / PE? Do you stamp your Structure pages?

 

[ggunn]

There is the competence issue and liability, no?

Of course.

You are an EE / PE? Do you stamp your Structure pages?

Absolutely not.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Of course.

Absolutely not.

ok then. duh, huh? ;P

Sorry to be a dick. But you follow what I am going on about?

This garbage will harm the industry.

 

[jaggedben]

Varies by city and utility.

For the Cities -- it typically starts with ANYTHING that is Structure (separate pages from Electrical). So then Electrical says -- yeah, us, too.

Many Utilities require it for equipment (Grid Tied) hooked into their Grid Operations.

Most AHJs here (California) adopt certain minimum requirements for structure and racking, e.g there will be a table based on rafter size and span length and it will determine if the structure is adequate as well as your mount spacing. So then if you have a non-standard roof structure or you want to go outside the guidelines, then you need to get an engineer's stamp.

I've never needed an EE stamp for a residential project.

It doesn't particularly surprise me that you're seeing what your seeing because the real risk and the perceived risk are both pretty low compared to the demand. (Roofs are not going to collapse because of solar panels, in almost all cases.) Yes it will harm the industry but it's also an indication of too much red tape. Speaking of residential here, not commercial.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Most AHJs here (California) adopt certain minimum requirements for structure and racking, e.g there will be a table based on rafter size and span length and it will determine if the structure is adequate as well as your mount spacing. So then if you have a non-standard roof structure or you want to go outside the guidelines, then you need to get an engineer's stamp.

I've never needed an EE stamp for a residential project.

It doesn't particularly surprise me that you're seeing what your seeing because the real risk and the perceived risk are both pretty low compared to the demand. (Roofs are not going to collapse because of solar panels, in almost all cases.) Yes it will harm the industry but it's also an indication of too much red tape. Speaking of residential here, not commercial.

Texas. Not always the most PV friendly folks, sometimes. (yeah, Red / Blue etc. moronathon stuff)

Wind load is the real structure issue here.

Once you take away the Live Load (20 pounds per square foot), and add the Dead Load of Solar (less than 5 pounds per square foot) -- it is an overall reduction.

But the Wind Load is Very Real for us. Had some panels break loose a few months ago on a ground mount -- 45 mph wind was the reported peak.

 

[ggunn]

ok then. duh, huh? ;P

Sorry to be a dick. But you follow what I am going on about?

This garbage will harm the industry.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you wrote: "...Civil / Structural PEs stamping the Electrical. Not allowed under the Engineering Practices Act." PE licenses in Texas are not discipline specific. It is not against the Act for a PE degreed in civil engineering to seal an electrical drawing as long as he or she is competent to do so, and competence is self determined. I would never seal a structural drawing because I don't know enough about structural engineering to be competent.

I agree that misusing a PE seal is a serious abuse of the public trust that we as PEs are required by our licenses to protect.

 

[jaggedben]

Texas. Not always the most PV friendly folks, sometimes. (yeah, Red / Blue etc. moronathon stuff)

Wind load is the real structure issue here.

Once you take away the Live Load (20 pounds per square foot), and add the Dead Load of Solar (less than 5 pounds per square foot) -- it is an overall reduction.

But the Wind Load is Very Real for us. Had some panels break loose a few months ago on a ground mount -- 45 mph wind was the reported peak.

Yes wind load is generally the primary issue everywhere. More attachments should be required in hurricane country, to be sure, but it can still be reduced to a table.

If you lost panels at 45mph wind gusts that's almost certainly installation error not design error. Minimum design wind speed for the whole country is 110mph, higher where necessary.

I know my comments aren't immediately helpful but maybe can be passed around and bear fruit over time. If any AHJs will be willing to listen to how California does it (~10GW rooftop solar installed). <rolls eyes> ('moronathon', I'll remember that.)

 

[dkidd]

§137.59 ENGINEERS’ ACTIONS SHALL BE COMPETENT
(a) Engineers shall practice only in their areas of competence.
(b) The engineer shall not perform any engineering assignment for which the engineer is not qualified by education or experience to perform adequately and competently. However, an engineer may accept an assignment which includes phases outside of the engineer's area of competence if those other phases are performed by qualified licensed professionals, consultants, associates, or employees.
(c) The engineer shall not express an engineering opinion in deposition or before a court, administrative agency, or other public forum which is contrary to generally accepted scientific and engineering principles without fully disclosing the basis and rationale for such an opinion. Engineering opinions which are rendered as expert testimony and contain quantitative values shall be supported by adequate modeling or analysis of the phenomena described.

Is the P.E. license discipline specific?
No, Texas does not license by discipline. Your primary discipline will be listed
in the Board records, based on what you indicate on your application. If you
have expertise in another discipline and can submit sufficient evidence of
competency in that discipline, rule 133.97(k), the Board can list a second or
third discipline in the records. However, the licensed engineer is bound to only
practice engineering in areas where
competent, trained, and qualified or may
be subject to enforcement actions.

 

[jaggedben]

Example expedited PV permitting checklist for systems under 10kW.

https://www.contracosta.ca.gov/DocumentCenter/View/37433/DCD-PVR-Eligibility-and-Structural-checklist

 

[Phil Timmons]

Maybe I misinterpreted what you wrote: "...Civil / Structural PEs stamping the Electrical. Not allowed under the Engineering Practices Act." PE licenses in Texas are not discipline specific. It is not against the Act for a PE degreed in civil engineering to seal an electrical drawing as long as he or she is competent to do so, and competence is self determined. I would never seal a structural drawing because I don't know enough about structural engineering to be competent.

I agree that misusing a PE seal is a serious abuse of the public trust that we as PEs are required by our licenses to protect.

Going by the ethics / competence portion.

For full level -- IR not a PE, and not on the board, so you are correct -- I cannot declare it so.

But back to the intent of my would-be start . . . . What is best for tamping this down?

Smile and Wave?
Complaints to the Board?
Slapping the offending PEs and scheduling a dual at dawn? ;P

If they had not been so consistently incompetent -- I would not have even noticed or started looking at this.

Really, I have began seeing this daily. I now spend most of my time correcting "paid for" errors.