Home automation systems

[goldstar]

This is a follow up to a post from Sept 24, 2004 regarding home automation systems. I made a comment in that post with respect to having to make some level of investment in time, product and/or test equipment to become experienced with working with home automation products.

In November of 2003 I installed a combination of (4) X-10 relay modules and addressable receptacles (all set to the same address) with a master switch at the front door and signal amplifier/repeater at a sub-panel in an 8000 sq. ft home. The system was controlling outdoor landscape lighting. The set-up worked fine for the first two months then began to fail. I returned to the job and re-tested all the equipment and it seemed to work fine. Another month goes by and the customer called me complaining that the system did not work. Return trip # 2 revealed that the master transmitter switch was defective. I didn't have a new one with me so I left a desk-top remote control which worked fine for about 3 months. On return trip # 3 I re-installed a new wall switch and hadn't heard from her in about 4 months.

Finally the call came and I was preparing to go out and make return call # 4 but first I called tech support. Their stand was that there was nothing wrong with their product and that the X-10 signal was being blocked due to noise being generated by some component like a computer or a TV. They wanted me to invest $ 300.00 in a signal analyser which I could not bring myself to do. So I purchased several noise reduction interface modules and made trip # 4 to install them on all wall outlets where computers or TV's were being used. The system worked fine for several months and died again. I then purchased some wall switches from a different manufacturer/distributor and went back out for return trip # 5. I was only able to get 3 out of 4 areas to respond to the signal. I then began hunting for a signal blocking source. It took about an hour but I finally found a large telephone switching mechanism and Lyncsys computer modem plugged into a receptacle in the basement. When I re-installed an noise reduction interface module at that location the problem was solved.

Long story short - "You gotta pay for your education when using this equipment!!!"

 

[gndrod]

Re: Home automation systems

Goldstar, I am in the same club. I spent a few hours figuring out a control processor that scrambled its internal program when switching one channel in a 24 channel unit. Seems that turning off the channel was being done by switching the neutral grounded side of an isolation transformer. Switching to the ungrounded primary side solved the problem.

BTW, did you find out what the Lyncsys modem output was controlling through the receptacle branch circuit?

 

[goldstar]

Re: Home automation systems

By process of elimination. There was one area powered from a receptacle in the garage that wouldn't turn on from the wall switch at the front door. I had already installed interface modules on all computers in the house. I went into the basement looking for equipment that might be causing the problem. The room that had the main breaker panels also had the signal amplifier and the telephone switchgear and computer modem in it. At that point it was a hit and miss situation, but after finding it and installing an interface module, everything worked fine.

By the way, this is not typical of most installations. I have X-10 systems installed in many large homes that have worked flawlessly for years. I maintain systems that were installed by landscape contractors and novices in the trade that have been working for years. I just get a bit taken back when a company takes the stand that any X-10 transmitting or receiving problems can't possibly be theirs and that there is more than likely something you mis-installed or that is blocking the signal. As luck would have it, in this case, the problem was signal interference. However, two of their $50.00 modules went bad inside of a year. I'm still fighting with them over that one.

[ January 20, 2005, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Home automation systems

did you have enough money in the original installation to cover the five trips back out to the house? i had someone ask me to wire their house because i was wiring the house next door for a friend of mine. and i was considering it until i looked at the plans---it was a "total smart house" and a completely new system to the industry. i told him i would do the job with conventional wiring only! the owner was an engineer----i backed away from it and my buddy told me it has been a nightmare for his neighbor. the installation was bad and the manufacturer has blamed everything on the installation and lightning. what do you do at this point---the owner is stuck with an $800k house full of problems!

 

[msd]

Re: Home automation systems

the $300.00 X-10 signal analizer is the only way to go. I also had a hard time justifing the purchase until I was sick of pulling my hair out troubleshoting bad signls. It is well worth the money, as troubleshooting is usually quick and easy now. It has paid for itself in saved time many times over.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Home automation systems

One thing I learned with X-10 is keep controls off any circuit that will be using surge suppressors as they also incorporate noise filters that tend to block the X-10 signals.

 

[goldstar]

Re: Home automation systems

Charlie,

No I didn't have enough $$ in the original job to justify the 5 return trips not to mention the additional interface modules and replacement switches I had to buy. I took this all on the chin. As I mentioned in my original post (and I really meant for this to be an education for those who wish to merely dabble in home automation systems) - you have to make an investment of either time and/or $$ in product to find out what works, where, why and when. If I had experienced these problems up front, the outcome of this job might have been different. But, the fact that it worked for 2 months and then crapped out is beyond me not to mention that the manufacturer didn't stand behind their product.

MSD,
I don't do enough of this work to justify a $300.00 investment into a signal analyser that I might use once a year. As a rule I don't install large X-10 systems and the smaller ones that I have installed have been working for years now without any problems.

 

[msd]

Re: Home automation systems

the fact that it worked for 2 months and then crapped out is beyond me

I suspect that you have something creating noise on the line that interferes wih the x-10 signal. Easily detected with that expensive signal analizer.

If the product worked when you installed it, and later acts up, the problem is elseware in the home and is not a result of faulty product. The problem is that some other piece of electronics in the home is generation noise. The tough part is finding that perticular piece of equipment.

There are many devices in most homes, which interfere with the X10 signal, preventing it from getting to its destination. Some have circuits which eliminate noise (conditioners). These circuits absorb the X10 signal, making it weaker throughout the house. Other devices put noise on the power line making it difficult for the X10 signal to be heard.

The following lists of devices are likely to interfere with X10 signals. If you've already found the device Click Here to read more about the solution.

Signal Absorbers (Complex electronic power supplies with built in conditioning circuits, which absorb X10)

? Televisions
? Computers: Clone-type computers seem to be more of a problem than name brands
? Computer monitors: No-name brands are bigger problems than big name brands
? Laptop computer power supplies: NEC is a known problem
? Ozone/Air ionizers and filters
? Game Systems: Nintendo, X-Box, PlayStation, etc.
? Audio/Video components: Satellite receivers, CD players, VCRs, DVD players, Cable boxes, Tape Decks, TIVOs, AV Receivers.
? MIDI musical instruments Synthesizers, Electronic pianos, Drum machines, Mixers, Reverbs, etc.
? Fax machines
? Surge-protection power strips, UPS's, and Power Conditioners.


Noisemakers (Devices that actually put out electrical noise onto the electrical line)

? HID lighting
? Motors: Refrigerator, heating systems, pumps, attic fans, treadmills
? Microwave Ovens
? Transformer-based lighting that use solid-state (electronic) transformers
? Fluorescent-based lighting and ballast transformers
? Failed or failing X10 transmitters, most commonly RR501 (4005X)
? Other Transformers: Cell phone chargers, Toothbrush chargers, Razors, etc

With so many items being imported into the home by the customer, eventually you are going to run into this. That vibrating thing that the mrs has plugged in is a real killer.

This is the signal analizer

 

[goldstar]

Re: Home automation systems

MSD,

You sound like "tech support" from a home automation company. I agree that having one of these analyzers would help in determining if there is anything blocking X-10 signals but it doesn't tell you what or where these signal blocking devices are. The long and short of it is you will still have to go through a process of elimination and even turn off and on certain breakers until you find the source. If you have to do that anyway, what's the sense of buying the analyser ? Also, I did mention that there were 2 wall switches that did, in fact, fail and are defective. There cost was about $ 50.00 @ and the company's position is that "something" in the house caused them to become defective.

My whole point to this is that if you install most electrical equipment (i.e breakers, light fixtures, exhaust fans, etc) if you have a piece of defective equipment the supply house replaces it - no questions asked and no cost to you. When you have 2 pieces of X-10 equipment that are defective the X-10 manufacturer's position is - they were good when they left the warehouse so if they're defective it must be your fault. How do you build that and the $300.00 analyser into your sales price when all the customer wants to do is turn on landscape lighting with one switch ?

I get upset with this because I can't pass that attitude along to my customer. Before I installed this equipment I checked with tech support of the X-10 company before I purchased and proposed the installation to my customer. They designed the system and I convinced my customer that this would work - and in fact it did. When it fails, how do I now go back to my customer and tell her that something in her house is causing the wall switches to become defective and that something (that existed at the time of the original installation) is now blocking the X-10 signal, and only for the equipment that I installed? There is other X-10 equipment in her house that has been working fine for years now.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a tirade, but again my whole point to this thread is that you can't merely "dabble" in X-10 installations. You have to make an investment, as you have, and pay for your education (in more ways than you can imagine).

 

[msd]

Re: Home automation systems

Agreed, definately not for the dabbler.

X-10 is a technoligy available from different manufacturers. I do not use the stuff that is in the black & white box because my experiance with this perticular brand is troublesome. I much prefere the stuff in the white box with the blue writing.

A great cash cow if one is willing to spend the time to go from the dabbler to the proficient installer.

 

[rfr32]

Re: Home automation systems

i have been in this side for about 11 years.
i can tell you that training is the biggest
solution you can do. stay away from x-10, and do more of the top name products. you will need to
have good computer skills, along with hiring a good IT computer wiz. the profits can be rewarding, but planning these projects can take a
great deal of your time. a/v is a great thing,last month one of our fellow electrical contractors was on CE-PRO , a large source for the a/v tech heads. good luck!

 

[goldstar]

Re: Home automation systems

msd & rfr,
I don't know what it's like in your area but here I find the high end work to be a tough sell. I began using the X-10 gear when it became impractical to run additional wires to various locations. Installing a programmable relay module and wall or table top transmitter is a simple solution to a large problem. Selling a high end switching network up front, to me, is a more difficult concept to sell than a regularly wired system unless, of course, you are selling to someone who is highly technical to begin with.

If you are selling to an older couple or someone who is not technology literate the chances of making the sale are minimal. Not to mention that if they realize that once you install this stuff they are "married" to it (and probably to you, for the most part) because it is a specialty area. My opinin has always been that if I go to a Ford dealer to buy a car I would like to know that I am not locked into taking my car back to that dealer for service. I think the same applies here.