Hi all. New here.

[Bladnaster]

Hello

New here and I came across this site while looking for some information for a predicament I find myself to be in, but before I get into that, a little about myself.

I live in Ct and have been in the trade (E-2) since 2000. I have had the fortune of working on many different jobs encompassing everything from switch yard work all the way down to tele-data. In a way, I have been quite lucky (and unfortunately quite sheltered) in that the work I have done has been predominately new construction, full out renovations, and what little old work I had to deal with has always been of reasonable quality. Very sheltered indeed.

Anyway, unfortunately for us the work picture has been horrendous for the past year, so much so that I recently took up a job doing maintenance in a nursing home until things pick back up. My buddy just started there as the maintenance supervisor, I needed something to hold me over and he needed help badly. (The old maintenance supervisor got fired and his assistant quit shortly after I got there.)

What I have found in this place has really, really infuriated me. I have heard horror stories from co-workers who do alot of side work or have worked a lot of residential work, but man oh man, I'm beside myself.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing that I have found that has not horrified me. From exit signs with broken tabs inside in which they just replaced the lamps letting them rest against the plastic causing them to burn and fracture, to going to replace a ballast and upon opening having the ballast they had put in along with a pile of wires fall out and hit me in the face, to open boxes and cut/capped wired of which I have no idea where they go up in the ceiling to what I am looking at now which are the outlets. (These are just some of the problems. Damn building should be gutted and rebuilt)

It did not take me long to realize why so many of the outlets were flopping. Every box/plaster ring is set at least an inch back......at least. The furthest box back was about 6". So far back that they ended up having to make a floating splice in the wall so that the could get the damn wire to the outlet. On top of that......the splices and the connections to the devices themselves are horrid.

Anyway, enough ranting. I am currently in the process of writing up a report of things that I know have to be addressed, but there are things that I am just not sure of and if I could get some direction on the answers via pointing me to the correct code article or even thoughts I would be greatly appreciative.

For now, I am going to take a break here. I did read the forum rules and I do not believe that anything that I ask will be against them, but with I wrote above and with the problems being so far reaching I do not want to cause any trouble. Even if the things I am searching for are outside the rules and cannot be answered, I feel that this site can be very beneficial and would not want to be banned.

So, till I'm sure I'm not over stepping my bounds, have a nice night. I'll continue my research seeing if I can find some more answers on my own.

Dave

 

[jumper]

Hello Dave.

Welcome to the forum.

It would be easier for members to answer if ask specific questions.

 

[kwired]

I will tell you upfront the problem in nursing homes I have been around is they likely will not change any of what you bring up unless an electrical inspector, fire marshal, or other person that has authority to shut down their operation if things are not fixed makes them fix it.

This goes for more then just the electrical install as well. How many overworked and underpaid direct patient care employees do they have? Most I have seen are lacking in direct patient care help needed, and are not going to spend a dime if they don't have to on what administration sees as minor maintenance issues, and when they do it will be by the full time maintenance staff if at all possible instead of a professional that knows how to do the task properly.

If you flip on a switch and the light comes on - everything must be fine:happyyes:

 

[GoldDigger]

And the worst that could happen would be for one thread to be closed while you discuss by PM with a moderator. It will not get you banned.
Persistent bad language and trolling may get you banned, but so far I see no sign of that.

 

[jumper]

And the worst that could happen would be for one thread to be closed while you discuss by PM with a moderator. It will not get you banned.

That is correct.:thumbsup:

 

[jumper]

Persistent bad language and trolling may get you banned, but so far I see no sign of that.

Correct also.

 

[Bladnaster]

Well. To start off with, the system is older using AC 2 wire, (no ground, with tracer). Now if I am reading it correctly, although I'm not happy with it, this is an acceptable (through the casing) form of grounding. If this is the case then there is nothing I can do about it. If this is the case, do I just run a grounding pigtail from the box to the grounding terminal on the device? They do not even have this. Even though I find this hard to believe, the grounding system still seems to be intact.

Another thing with the outlets. I would have to look again, but I feel that the outlets themselves should be hospital grade because although this is a nursing home, they also preform general care within the patients rooms. Is this a fine line, or am I over thinking?

 

[Bladnaster]

I will tell you upfront the problem in nursing homes I have been around is they likely will not change any of what you bring up unless an electrical inspector, fire marshal, or other person that has authority to shut down their operation if things are not fixed makes them fix it.

This goes for more then just the electrical install as well. How many overworked and underpaid direct patient care employees do they have? Most I have seen are lacking in direct patient care help needed, and are not going to spend a dime if they don't have to on what administration sees as minor maintenance issues, and when they do it will be by the full time maintenance staff if at all possible instead of a professional that knows how to do the task properly.

If you flip on a switch and the light comes on - everything must be fine:happyyes:

Your correct on all points. I've actually considered reporting this. Ill see what happens.

 

[Bladnaster]

And the worst that could happen would be for one thread to be closed while you discuss by PM with a moderator. It will not get you banned.
Persistent bad language and trolling may get you banned, but so far I see no sign of that.

Thats good to know Lol....outside of my constant swearing about the state of this work place I'm normally pretty calm.

 

[kwired]

How old is older?

If the AC cable has the (typically solid aluminum approximately 16 gauge) bonding conductor within the sheath, then it is listed for grounding, and is (possibly arguably) less resistance then a full sized EGC would be if one were installed.

Bonding jumper to the receptacle is very likely needed, as well as extension of the box somehow, though it still may be difficult to make a code compliant extension and or have enough free length of conductors at the outlet boxes from what you have described for some instances.

 

[jimdavis]

Welcome to the forum. I think you will find amongst the members the most knowledgeable people in the electrical industry. If you have questions relating to questionable installs you run across, don't hesitate to post pictures. They truly are worth a thousand words.

Regarding your question about hospital-grade receptacles, I don't believe they are required in a nursing home. If they were, they would be required to be connected to an insulated copper EGC which you do not have anyway.

 

[GoldDigger]

Although examining or treatment rooms in the facility for the convenience of visiting MDs, nurses or nurse practitioners may qualify for higher requirements than the bed area or the rest of the building.

 

[kwired]

Although examining or treatment rooms in the facility for the convenience of visiting MDs, nurses or nurse practitioners may qualify for higher requirements than the bed area or the rest of the building.

Without looking it up, I believe it says patient sleeping rooms or something very similar to that need not comply with art 517. Most nursing homes have no rooms or very limited areas that are required to comply with 517, if higher care level is necessary they are generally transported to a higher care facility for such treatment.

 

[Bladnaster]

How old is older?

If the AC cable has the (typically solid aluminum approximately 16 gauge) bonding conductor within the sheath, then it is listed for grounding, and is (possibly arguably) less resistance then a full sized EGC would be if one were installed.

Bonding jumper to the receptacle is very likely needed, as well as extension of the box somehow, though it still may be difficult to make a code compliant extension and or have enough free length of conductors at the outlet boxes from what you have described for some instances.

Yeah, it has the tracer (aluminum wire) and I know its accepted. Just not a fan of it, especially in a place like this. Prime example would be the two plastic boxes I found which I will have to replace. At least with MC or romex we always have that ground wire there. I'll have to instruct my buddy on the importance of keeping the integrity of the system intact. (correct connectors, metal boxes, stuff like that.)

Bonding jumpers I already figured.

As far as the extenders, I wasnt sure until last night. Did not know about the outlet extenders. (never had to use them) Will save quite a bit of work though there will be some where I will absolutely have to open up the walls because the extenders are only up to a certain length. Question I do have is will it matter if I use the plastic extenders or should I use the metal ones. I cant imagine it making a difference outside of price.

Still gonna be a ton of work.


Another thing that I have come across are boxes that I have never seen and can not find. They are long boxes that pass through the wall from one patients room into the adjoining room. They came into the top of the box, ran the line directly to one outlet, came back out and ran it directly to the other outlet. Because they did such a fine job of making the connections, (yes, that was sarcasm), you go to work on one side and the wires pull out of the other. Great fun.

Are these things even legal? Outside of what I pointed out, it seems to me that in the case of a fire this could almost act as a flue from one room to another which is where the patients are put, with doors closed....at least during our drills.

 

[kwired]

Yeah, it has the tracer (aluminum wire) and I know its accepted. Just not a fan of it, especially in a place like this. Prime example would be the two plastic boxes I found which I will have to replace. At least with MC or romex we always have that ground wire there. I'll have to instruct my buddy on the importance of keeping the integrity of the system intact. (correct connectors, metal boxes, stuff like that.)

Bonding jumpers I already figured.

As far as the extenders, I wasnt sure until last night. Did not know about the outlet extenders. (never had to use them) Will save quite a bit of work though there will be some where I will absolutely have to open up the walls because the extenders are only up to a certain length. Question I do have is will it matter if I use the plastic extenders or should I use the metal ones. I cant imagine it making a difference outside of price.

Still gonna be a ton of work.


Another thing that I have come across are boxes that I have never seen and can not find. They are long boxes that pass through the wall from one patients room into the adjoining room. They came into the top of the box, ran the line directly to one outlet, came back out and ran it directly to the other outlet. Because they did such a fine job of making the connections, (yes, that was sarcasm), you go to work on one side and the wires pull out of the other. Great fun.

Are these things even legal? Outside of what I pointed out, it seems to me that in the case of a fire this could almost act as a flue from one room to another which is where the patients are put, with doors closed....at least during our drills.

Nothing wrong with such a box in general. But if you are required to have fire rated construction then your concerns are the reason they may not be allowed in your application.

With boxes needing extended to become flush (I tried to mention this before) one other problem you could have when extensions are necessary is with the amount of free conductor available at the outlet box. 300.14 says you must have at least 6 inches of free conductor, it also goes on to say where the box has an opening of less then 8 inches (which pretty much covers all switch and receptacle device boxes) you need at least 3 inches of conductor long enough to extend 3 inches outside the opening. If they have built out walls as far as you mentioned earlier there is a good chance you have some issue with this section.

 

[Bladnaster]

Welcome to the forum. I think you will find amongst the members the most knowledgeable people in the electrical industry. If you have questions relating to questionable installs you run across, don't hesitate to post pictures. They truly are worth a thousand words.

Regarding your question about hospital-grade receptacles, I don't believe they are required in a nursing home. If they were, they would be required to be connected to an insulated copper EGC which you do not have anyway.

Ok, tyvm. Was not sure.

Seems to me that nursing homes are kind of a hybrid. The patients bedrooms are also general care area's yet because they are nursing homes they are exempt from this requirement? "Nursing home and limited care facility areas used exclusively for patient sleeping" which they are not. Breathing treatments, oxygen condensers, dialysis machines, iv's...stuff like that. Thats kind of why I was a bit confused

Also, I can not find where it says that I need an EGC. AC cable with the tracer I believe is listed as a suitable ground much to my disdain. As far as general wiring goes, up to this point everything has always been piped, mc or romex. Never had to worry about not having a ground.

But its all good. I'll leave that off the list for now. Have enough other stuff to worry about.

 

[Bladnaster]

Nothing wrong with such a box in general. But if you are required to have fire rated construction then your concerns are the reason they may not be allowed in your application.

With boxes needing extended to become flush (I tried to mention this before) one other problem you could have when extensions are necessary is with the amount of free conductor available at the outlet box. 300.14 says you must have at least 6 inches of free conductor, it also goes on to say where the box has an opening of less then 8 inches (which pretty much covers all switch and receptacle device boxes) you need at least 3 inches of conductor long enough to extend 3 inches outside the opening. If they have built out walls as far as you mentioned earlier there is a good chance you have some issue with this section.

All right on the long boxes. I'll double check on the fire rating requirements of the facility per the patients rooms. Would you happen to know what these boxes are called. I can not find the things and I would like to read up on them a bit.

As for the box extensions, the ones that they can be used on I'll do, ones I cant I'll end up having to open the walls and figure something out.

This is all based of course on whether they want the stuff done right which in the end will be expensive, or they instead choose to fire me because I can not in good conscious let this go.

 

[Bladnaster]

As a side note, have been doing quite a bit of reading here. This site is GREAT!!!!

 

[kwired]

Ok, tyvm. Was not sure.

Seems to me that nursing homes are kind of a hybrid. The patients bedrooms are also general care area's yet because they are nursing homes they are exempt from this requirement? "Nursing home and limited care facility areas used exclusively for patient sleeping" which they are not. Breathing treatments, oxygen condensers, dialysis machines, iv's...stuff like that. Thats kind of why I was a bit confused

Also, I can not find where it says that I need an EGC. AC cable with the tracer I believe is listed as a suitable ground much to my disdain. As far as general wiring goes, up to this point everything has always been piped, mc or romex. Never had to worry about not having a ground.

But its all good. I'll leave that off the list for now. Have enough other stuff to worry about.

The kinds of treatements you mentioned very well may make this area required to fall under 517 rules. You may need to have intervention with health care codes to determine what level of care is intended/allowed in such rooms. Does oxygen when used come from permanent lines in the facility or from portable tanks? That could be a determining factor as well. People use portable oxygen in their homes sometimes and they are not considered a 517 area in those instances, but if dialysis, IV's and other higher level care type of equipment is used on a regular basis, the licensing of the facility for the type of care given may go beyond that of a typical nursing home and make it become more of a hospital. I think an occasional emergency procedure is probably acceptable, and will often be only for long enough duration for advance care transportation to arrive and take over, but if they become routine this should require higher care level licensing for their healthcare licensing.

 

[Bladnaster]

The kinds of treatements you mentioned very well may make this area required to fall under 517 rules. You may need to have intervention with health care codes to determine what level of care is intended/allowed in such rooms. Does oxygen when used come from permanent lines in the facility or from portable tanks? That could be a determining factor as well. People use portable oxygen in their homes sometimes and they are not considered a 517 area in those instances, but if dialysis, IV's and other higher level care type of equipment is used on a regular basis, the licensing of the facility for the type of care given may go beyond that of a typical nursing home and make it become more of a hospital. I think an occasional emergency procedure is probably acceptable, and will often be only for long enough duration for advance care transportation to arrive and take over, but if they become routine this should require higher care level licensing for their healthcare licensing.

I'll end up having to do some more research on the building to find out. From what I've read the only real difference between hospital grade and regular is the way they are built with the hospital grade being more "solidly" built with less of a chance of the plug's falling/pulling out. One of the requirements of this place is that once a year they are supposed to go around with a tension tester, not that I think they ever did.

Regardless, I'll see what I can find out. If its code that they need them, then they need them. If not, then they dont.

Also, perhaps the difference is, as you said, that in the case of an emergency, they basically stabilize until ems arrives. We have had days where they have shown up half a dozen times.