Help solve a debate between my twin brother and I (both electrical engineers) read message below for details

PE (always learning)

Senior Member
Location
Saint Louis
Occupation
Professional Engineer
Again, I'm not suggesting you go with a 90 amp breaker on all 75 kVA transformers, I'm just showing you the reality is that even at absolute peak inrush for a Siemens 75 kVA transformer, you still won't trip on a 90 amp fuse or breaker with that particular equipment. Now for equipment that hasn't been tested, yes go with a higher breaker if you don't have the data.

I can't speak for what ever Topgone's transformer was and why he's having issues because I don't have any data on it.
 

PE (always learning)

Senior Member
Location
Saint Louis
Occupation
Professional Engineer
An update on my end:. I just energized the single phase 25 KVA 240-240 transformer I discussed earlier in the thread. It is fed by a 125 amp breaker. The breaker does NOT like it and trips probably every 4th attempt. So I am at primary breaker being 120% of FLA.

Now I will be the first to say it doesn't always matter if a transformer doesn't reliably start - just try it again. In this case I don't consider the $1000 it would cost to put this on a 200 to be worth it, so I'm just going to advise the client there is a possibility they need to turn the breaker back in after an outage. But the point is, it looks like my experience is quite a bit different than the OP's so it appears you can't generalize on a OCPD/FLA ratio for reliable starting.
Also, I noticed after looking at more data, that the inrush current was much worse for single phase transformers for some reason
 

kevinx10396

Member
Location
AB, Canada
Occupation
Electrical designer & estimator
My twin brother and I are both electrical engineers and sometimes get into some fierce arguments when it comes to design.
Today we had an argument on primary breaker sizing for a 75 kVA transformer. The transformer was feeding a secondary 200 amp main circuit breaker panel at 120/208V, 3 phase, 4 wire and the primary was 480V, 3 phase and he used a 125 amp breaker (which is fine, but read on)

He told me that it is industry standard to size the overcurrent protection on the primary at 125 amps in this scenario to which I disagreed with. I told him that a 100 amp or even a 90 amp breaker would be fine in this scenario based on table 450.3(B). 450.3(B) clearly states that the 250% is a maximum overcurrent protection for transformers 1000 volts and less, but does not state minimum protection.

I know that having a higher primary breaker size is always nice in a scenario like this to avoid tripping from transformer inrush, but I have looked at the actual transformer inrush charts for many transformers and the real values are always well below the breaker trip curve values in the instantaneous region.

Again, I go back to his argument about using a 125 amp breaker as industry standard to which I say no. I say using a 100 amp breaker would be just fine and would probably save you money as usually going from 100 amps to a 125 amp breaker leads to using a sub fed breaker which costs more money.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts so we can know who wins.

At full load 90/100amps will trip essentially. Considering the derating factor of CB @80%, which is good knowing that your not overloading the transformer. On the good side of using 125Amps will help you maximize the rated capacity of the transformer.
 

PE (always learning)

Senior Member
Location
Saint Louis
Occupation
Professional Engineer
At full load 90/100amps will trip essentially. Considering the derating factor of CB @80%, which is good knowing that your not overloading the transformer. On the good side of using 125Amps will help you maximize the rated capacity of the transformer.
Yea, there are benefits to either way you go. I just wanted to mostly show the inrush current wasn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be when you look at the actual statistics produced by the manufacturer's.
 

kevinx10396

Member
Location
AB, Canada
Occupation
Electrical designer & estimator
What is this "derating factor"?
Derating factor is a multiplier used to determine the limited rating of a breaker due to some reasons, like type of application, environment, load types, ambient temperature etc. sometimes it is also specified on the manufacturers data sheet.
 

kevinx10396

Member
Location
AB, Canada
Occupation
Electrical designer & estimator
Not sure if its also on the discretion of the designer. Just a question, is it okay to max out the rating of a breaker? Or it is always okay to save room
 
I had to use my old Fluke 43B to catch and graph the inrush.
Ok I measured this guy. Measured no load losses too for the fun of it, got 115 watts or .46% which is as expected. Inrush was typically 160-230A when the breaker was held, but out of range when the breaker tripped! This is a 600A meter. I think my other one is 1000A and also has inrush measurement so I'll grab next time I come here.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I always heard that and assumed that meant the longer it sat unenergized, the higher the inrush would/could be. However I've cycled this thing on and off a bunch of times in short succession, and it doesn't seem to be any better.
I was remembering a discussion about residual magnetism whose strength and polarity depend on the moment during the sine wave the power is turned off, making it random.
 

MD Automation

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Engineer
I was remembering a discussion about residual magnetism whose strength and polarity depend on the moment during the sine wave the power is turned off, making it random.

Yes, this is precisely what I was trying to explain in post 33, with way too many words as usual ;)

And why the worst case for inrush is not what you typically think it might be.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes, this is precisely what I was trying to explain in post 33, with way too many words as usual ;)

And why the worst case for inrush is not what you typically think it might be.
I guess that would be because of the internal capacitance of the transformer and no path to ground to bleed it off?
 
I was remembering a discussion about residual magnetism whose strength and polarity depend on the moment during the sine wave the power is turned off, making it random.
Ah I see. When I was thinking about timing, I was thinking about the timing of turning the power ON - which of course is a factor. But the timing of turning it OFF significantly effects how much magnetism remains which effects the next turn ON? That's what y'all are saying?
 
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