Grounded Conductor Problems

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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Bob, I see about as much need for this device as I see for AFCIs.
"Is that that new thing called sarcasm?" ~ Shallow Hal
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

Originally posted by iwire:
2)In my opinion it would be better to prevent open neutrals than to require a device to detect them.
I would be staunchly opposed to such a device being required by the NEC.

Then again, if my business revolved around selling and installing devices that may never be used, but could potenially add to the soundness of a system, I would sell these in a heartbeat.

I'd venture that a house service is more likely to experience an open neutral than experience an event that would make use of a lightning arrester, AFCI, surge protection, etc. These items can be upsold and make money for a company. I think Stu's ONCI could sell.

This would be very usefull in trailers (like job trailers) where chances are higher that an unexpected open neutral could rear it's head.

Good luck Stu. I still expect 10%. :D
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

Originally posted by georgestolz:
This would be very usefull in trailers (like job trailers) where chances are higher that an unexpected open neutral could rear it's head.
What do you guys see happening to neutrals that I do not? :roll:
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

I'm not sure I'm understanding this thread. I've only been peeking in here and there.

Is there an interest in putting a product together for a lost service neutral detector/turner offer?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

It strikes me that there are two components of the topic of this thread: </font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The indication of an open service entrance neutral.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Using a device (intelligent electronics) to trigger a circuit interrupter.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I look at the neutral as being real helpful to minimize part of the EMF associated with connecting an occupancy to a multi-ground PoCo distribution grid.

As the neutral impedance increases, the more unbalance current will flow from the main bonding jumper into the grounding electrode system, which is physically away from the service entrance conductors, so the EMF intensity increases in the occupancy.

What if the ONCI were an active device that had an electronic "choke", something like a triac, that was in the current path away from the neutral, that could choke steady current going into the GES, yet allowed short rise time currents (say rise times of 10 seconds or less) to pass.

The "high band pass" would allow short circuit events involving the GES to clear overcurrent protection. . .but the steady state 60 Hz current could be choked off, congregating most, if not all, of the unbalance current in the service entrance conductors, getting them to a timewise mostly near zero EMF.

The impedance controlling triac, between the MBJ and the GES, would have to failsafe to continuity. The simple wall dimmer triac does this most of the time when a fixture short occurs. Mimic that dimmer failure behaviour in the impedance controlling triac and also build in the programming for the trigger for a circuit interrupter that will operate when the neutral impedance spikes, and one will have an EMF moderating open neutral circuit interrupter
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

The reason I'm asking is because it would be fun to get into some design ideas. But I don't know if I want to do any free engineering if someone's gonna go out and get rich from it. :D

That doesn't necessarily mean that I wouldn't anyway. But it would depend on how I feel at any given moment.
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Grounded Conductor Problems

If I understand right you want to interrupt the service if you lose the service neutral?

If so, a contactor that relies on neutral to stay closed will open if the neutral goes away. You could expand on the basic concept to get more elaborate.
 
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