GFI
- Thread starter syjohn34
- Start date
- Status
ron
Senior Member
- Location
- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Re: GFI
A recept type GFCI does not need a ground to function.
A recept type GFCI does not need a ground to function.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFI
Look at 2002 NEC 406.3(D)(3)(b) it allows using GFCI receptacles as replacements where no ground exists, or think of GFCI breakers, no ground connection here either.
GFCIs do not need a ground to operate, they trip when there is a difference in current (typically 5ma or more) between hot and neutral.
Look at 2002 NEC 406.3(D)(3)(b) it allows using GFCI receptacles as replacements where no ground exists, or think of GFCI breakers, no ground connection here either.
GFCIs do not need a ground to operate, they trip when there is a difference in current (typically 5ma or more) between hot and neutral.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: GFI
The grounding conductor is not a current carrying conductor. Its main purpose is for short circuit and GROUND-FAULT protection. Ground-fault in this case meaning a direct ungrounded to ground contact, not change in current flow from ungrounded to grounded conducors. It sounds like your GFI may be defective or damaged. Make sure you have not mixed your line and load wiring as well.
The grounding conductor is not a current carrying conductor. Its main purpose is for short circuit and GROUND-FAULT protection. Ground-fault in this case meaning a direct ungrounded to ground contact, not change in current flow from ungrounded to grounded conducors. It sounds like your GFI may be defective or damaged. Make sure you have not mixed your line and load wiring as well.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: GFI
A GFCI tester will trip a GFCI rec. with only a hot and neutral.
Check to see that you have the rep wired properly. IE line side.
Mike P,
A GFCI tester will trip a GFCI rec. with only a hot and neutral.
Check to see that you have the rep wired properly. IE line side.
Mike P,
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFI
eprice and Roger make a good point, to cause a GFCI to trip the current has to "Go" some where other than Neutral so a plug in tester would need a ground to operate.
If this outlet is near something that is grounded (plumbing) you could use wiggy's from hot to a ground to test the GFCI, though this will not let you know how many milliamps it is tripping at.
[ April 11, 2003, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
eprice and Roger make a good point, to cause a GFCI to trip the current has to "Go" some where other than Neutral so a plug in tester would need a ground to operate.
If this outlet is near something that is grounded (plumbing) you could use wiggy's from hot to a ground to test the GFCI, though this will not let you know how many milliamps it is tripping at.
[ April 11, 2003, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Re: GFI
The internal test circuit is a more positive status test than a plug in tester.
A GFCI that does not trip, with the test button, is defective.
The bad part is the test can blow the activating circuit, making the GFCI defective, and it still can be reset for operation.
After the test, you can not be sure the device will still perform.
The test only verifies the past condition not the present.
[ April 11, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]
The internal test circuit is a more positive status test than a plug in tester.
A GFCI that does not trip, with the test button, is defective.
The bad part is the test can blow the activating circuit, making the GFCI defective, and it still can be reset for operation.
After the test, you can not be sure the device will still perform.
The test only verifies the past condition not the present.
[ April 11, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]
Re: GFI
--
Tom
That may be true of the old units but as the new ones become available it will not be so. The new GFIs will not reset if the mechanism has failed.Originally posted by bennie:
The internal test circuit is a more positive status test than a plug in tester.
A GFCI that does not trip, with the test button, is defective.
The bad part is the test can blow the activating circuit, making the GFCI defective, and it still can be reset for operation.
After the test, you can not be sure the device will still perform.
The test only verifies the past condition not the present.
--
Tom
Re: GFI
There will be no gain with a fail safe device. In high failure areas the people will discard them and install a plain receptacle.
I understand the proposal to require the fail safe type was rejected due to there only being one manufacturer.
Regardless, I would toss one when it failed and never replace it.
There will be no gain with a fail safe device. In high failure areas the people will discard them and install a plain receptacle.
I understand the proposal to require the fail safe type was rejected due to there only being one manufacturer.
Regardless, I would toss one when it failed and never replace it.
gserve
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: GFI
Just the other day I was testing 10 GFCI receptacles in a modular home. I had just purchased a new Ideal tracer with a GFCI tester. The new tester would not trip any of the 10 GFCI receptacles in the home! But pressing the test button on all of them did trip them. These were Pass&Seymour with the little amber light that glows when tripped. Went back to the truck and got my old Ideal GFCI tester and it tripped all 10 of them.Went down the basement and checked 2 of them (They were Leviton) and they tripped with the new tester. Talked to the Ideal rep and they said if it tripped the Leviton GFCI's than the tester was alright so it must be 10 defective GFCI receptacles. The AHJ said if the test button tripped them than they were alright. Go figure!
Just the other day I was testing 10 GFCI receptacles in a modular home. I had just purchased a new Ideal tracer with a GFCI tester. The new tester would not trip any of the 10 GFCI receptacles in the home! But pressing the test button on all of them did trip them. These were Pass&Seymour with the little amber light that glows when tripped. Went back to the truck and got my old Ideal GFCI tester and it tripped all 10 of them.Went down the basement and checked 2 of them (They were Leviton) and they tripped with the new tester. Talked to the Ideal rep and they said if it tripped the Leviton GFCI's than the tester was alright so it must be 10 defective GFCI receptacles. The AHJ said if the test button tripped them than they were alright. Go figure!
Re: GFI
Gserve, I have an ideal cicuit tracer with GFCI tester also. I have had mine for about 4 yrs now and haven't used it for GFI testing in about 3 1/2.
I do remember having this same problem, sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't.
I could take my GB 501 or Hubbell GFT-2G and trip the units.
One way to check your tester is to put a digital ohm meter across the hot and ground terminal and read with the button depressed. You should read between 15K and 18K ohms.
Roger
[ April 11, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Gserve, I have an ideal cicuit tracer with GFCI tester also. I have had mine for about 4 yrs now and haven't used it for GFI testing in about 3 1/2.
I do remember having this same problem, sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't.
I could take my GB 501 or Hubbell GFT-2G and trip the units.
One way to check your tester is to put a digital ohm meter across the hot and ground terminal and read with the button depressed. You should read between 15K and 18K ohms.
Roger
[ April 11, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: GFI
Another problem with testers is the circuit voltage if you have a receptical voltage is at 120v then it might trip, but if the circuit voltage is low like 109v it might not. I have a greenlee with diffrent settings and at the 5ma. setting it is very dependent on circuit voltage and if it is low I will usely have to use the next setting up which is the 7ma. setting.
Another problem with testers is the circuit voltage if you have a receptical voltage is at 120v then it might trip, but if the circuit voltage is low like 109v it might not. I have a greenlee with diffrent settings and at the 5ma. setting it is very dependent on circuit voltage and if it is low I will usely have to use the next setting up which is the 7ma. setting.
fallssparky
Member
- Location
- Ohio
Re: GFI
From what I remember about OP-AMPS they cant dissapate a lot of power before they smoke.
Fallssparky
How exactly does that work, is there a voltage devider feeding the OP-AMP to make it switch/ ..er change state and open the contacts ?
From what I remember about OP-AMPS they cant dissapate a lot of power before they smoke.
Fallssparky
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: GFI
they dont use a voltage divider. they use a current coil and run just the neutral and hot through it if the send current on the hot is equal to the return on the neutral then there is no current developed in the coil but if there is a diffreance then it will actavate the tripping electronics and open the relay. so if current is being pulled from ground or a neutral of another circuit it will trip because of the higher current on the hot than on the neutral.
they dont use a voltage divider. they use a current coil and run just the neutral and hot through it if the send current on the hot is equal to the return on the neutral then there is no current developed in the coil but if there is a diffreance then it will actavate the tripping electronics and open the relay. so if current is being pulled from ground or a neutral of another circuit it will trip because of the higher current on the hot than on the neutral.
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