GFI Kitchen Receptacles

[1793]

I am looking for the best and most economical way to convert three kitchen duplex receptacles that are fed with 12/3. Each receptacle has two circuits all sharing a neutral. I would appreciate any opinions and or suggestions with this matter.

Norb

 

[roger]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Why do you want to?

Roger

 

[rhn]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

How about changing the boxes to two gang and use two gfi rec.'s at each spot

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Two pole gfci breaker?

 

[1793]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

The breaker sounds like the best option for this customer. The house at least 30 years old. The kitchen counter boxes are quite full. The panel is a Gould. Does anyone know what other brand(s) 2 pole GFI breaker would interchange with this panel.

Norb

 

[roger]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Gould/ITE is now Siemens.

Roger

 

[1793]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Roger:

Thank you for your help and to all others who responded. It is appreciated.

Norb

 

[roger]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

You're welcome.

Roger

 

[1793]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

I made a mistake on the panel. It is a Bryant, Load Center. It appears that Muarry, ITE, Crouse Hines,GE etc. will work as well, is this correct?

Thanks
Norb

 

[wirenut1980]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Each receptacle has two circuits all sharing a neutral.

Would this not cause a tripping problem using a gfci breaker on shared neutral circuits? I am unfamiliar with operation of a 2 pole gfci breaker.

 

[peter d]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Originally posted by 1793:
I made a mistake on the panel. It is a Bryant, Load Center. It appears that Muarry, ITE, Crouse Hines,GE etc. will work as well, is this correct?

No, that's not correct. You will have to use a Cutler Hammer breaker for new and replacement use in obsolete Bryant equipment.

Read this UL document for more info.

 

[1793]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Peter:

Thank you for the link. I'll look into my options for this situation. I do appreciate the help.

Norb

 

[peter d]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Norb,

Hopefully Cutler Hammer equipment is readily available in your area. Depending on the brand preferences of your local suppliers, sometimes it can be hard to come by.

A good supplier should always have a wide selection of replacement breakers from every brand besides their main line(s). This is usually not the case in the real world. :roll:

 

[goldstar]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

I made a mistake on the panel. It is a Bryant, Load Center. It appears that Muarry, ITE, Crouse Hines,GE etc. will work as well, is this correct?

In addition to what Peter mentioned, even though other brands of circuit breakers may fit into this panel, they must be (UL) listed for use with this panel or a sharp inspector might red tag you for using a different brand. You'll end up having to prove that they are listed and that's more of a pain in the neck than just installing the right one.

Also, Bryant (as I understand it) is now owned by Cutler-Hammer and their breakers are still made.

 

[highkvoltage]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

I agree with wirenut1980. If you use a 2 pole breaker it would trip because of the unbalanced loads. Find the circuits isolate one of them and install GFCI outlet at each opening. If the are 20 amp each that should be plenty. If you need more outlets replace with a 2 gang box and install a GFCI outlet and a standard duplex outlet.

 

[1793]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

I have thought about the 2 pole GFCI breaker. I would like to know if anyone has installed a 2 pole like this for a shared neutral. If so did it work correctly? My sense of logic says it should not, unbalanced load and all, but I have not actually tried this.

There are three duplex receptacles with the bridge cut on each. 2 separate circuits fed by 12/3 aluminum feeding through to the next. I have thought about dead-ending at each. If this is the case, I would have two receptacles on one of the 20 amp and one on the other. I would still have two SA circuits in the kitchen.

 

[peter d]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

Originally posted by highkvoltage:
I agree with wirenut1980. If you use a 2 pole breaker it would trip because of the unbalanced loads.

That is incorrect. The GFI breaker circuitry senses the current between all possible paths: L-L and L-N. That is why GFI breakers have the neutral "pigtail" and provision to connect the load neutral conductor. A 2-pole GFI breaker will work fine in this application, in fact, I can't think of a better use for one that this.

However, the main disadvantage to this approach is that when the GFI breaker trips, you will lose power in both circuits. Depending on where the service panel is located, this may or may not be a big deal.

[ December 14, 2004, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[1793]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

I now have all of the information I need to move forward. I can not begin to express my thanks for the information and explanations.

Norb

 

[derwith]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

The current must be the same in both ungrounded conductors connected to a two pole GFI circuit breaker. If the current on one ungrounded conductor is returned on a grounded conductor, an imbalance will occur and the circuit breaker will trip.

GFI circuits cannot share wiring with other circuits either single pole or two pole.

 

[itasca_mn]

Re: GFI Kitchen Receptacles

A 2-pole 120/240 volt GFCI breaker has all three wires (both hots and the neutral) running through the same current sensing coil. A normal working circuit would result in zero amps at the sensing coil no matter which combination of the conductors have current flowing on them. Any leakage would cause an imbalance, resulting in current registering at the sensor, therefore causing the GFCI to trip.

If the breaker is rated 120/240, it will work great supplying the multi-wire circuit. We use them all over the plant that I work at.