Future proofing and the NEC

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I'm still using a 2007 version of Quickbooks. Runs fine on windows 10.
Thought I was bad, I'm using 2013 on an XP machine. I'm going to bite the bullet and replace my windows 7 machine with a 10 one of these days. I'll probably upgrade to the latest version of Quickbooks and put it on there mainly because I can't figure out how to port the old version over. Besides, I notice that they do fix some of the quirky things with each new version.

-Hal
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thought I was bad, I'm using 2013 on an XP machine. I'm going to bite the bullet and replace my windows 7 machine with a 10 one of these days. I'll probably upgrade to the latest version of Quickbooks and put it on there mainly because I can't figure out how to port the old version over. Besides, I notice that they do fix some of the quirky things with each new version.

-Hal
yes there are functionality improvements I'm sure, but I did study basics of accounting and do know how to track this stuff with hand written entries in journals and ledgers. Quickbooks does still use those same concepts and depending on how much you understand that, you can easily see it in some the detailed reports, or if you know very little or nothing on accounting, that is where some the features they have allow the software to do all the work and you just use their boilerplate forms to enter data.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... "They" claim that the big advantage is that you can access your applications from anywhere. But I think the big advantage is for "them" because they charge a monthly or yearly fee where you used to buy the application, install it and it was yours. ...
That's why OpenOffice was created, and why LibreOffice still exists. https://www.libreoffice.org/
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yup. Been doing this for 40 years. Started with a hand written ledger, got a computer and used a spreadsheet for a short time, went to Peachtree then Quickbooks.

-Hal
That is pretty much exactly how I progressed with my accounting in my business, except no Peachtree.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That's why OpenOffice was created, and why LibreOffice still exists. https://www.libreoffice.org/
I use Open Office. I usually only have one incident per year where I must find someone that uses Microsoft office and ask if I can run a spreadsheet for filing a particular state tax form. Open office will open their document but won't run the necessary macro embedded into it to give the desired result in the output being sent to the state taxing authority. Outside of that Open Office has done about anything I wanted it to do for several years.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Yes it will, but it takes out the entire top/bottom plate at the max dimension, and I have seen plumbers do it a few times, can't have any fittings in the wall though.

3 inch EMT will leave just a little bit of room if perfect hole is drilled, but possibly no room for any fittings within the wall here either, unless maybe thinner walled steel set screw fittings with set screws parallel to finished wall surface.
Which is a good reason why walls with large sewer stacks are often 6" (nominal) rather than 4" in new construction!


Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Which is a good reason why walls with large sewer stacks are often 6" (nominal) rather than 4" in new construction!


Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Yes that is typical, I just happened to see a plumber put 3 inch in a typical 2x4 framed wall just a small number of times.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
To the OP-

I am not on the "future proofing" side simply because its not practical. I am on the side for build a robust network now that will handle more than your needs. Generally that's a CAT 6 cable but if you have the money you can go 6A shielded. That will give you 10g for 100 meters. Cat 7 or 8 are not standardized yet and there's simply no piratical need in homes just like 3 phase power is not needed in homes. Cat6A far more than enough for any residence. I prefer not to run conduits all over because its so much overhead for an unexpected payoff. I could cite many examples of "smart homes" being wired 20 years ago that are a disaster today. In theory it sounds nice to just pull in a new cable. 6A copper will be enough. Just as they can squeeze more bandwidth out of wireless, copper is the same. Changing compression, protocols, frame size, port trunking etc.. are options if more bandwidth is somehow needed. . This is what comcast does to compete with FIOS in the last mile. Copper will not be replaced in the foreseeable future. It will be supplemented where it needs to but it will be around. Some people in the late 90s and early 2000s said fiber was going to be in all houses. That proved to be incorrect.

Everything that does not move should be networked with copper. Printers, TVs, cameras, desktops, entertainment, appliance etc.... the only wireless devices should be portable. Cell phones, laptops, etc..... this will greatly improve the performance of the network and the wireless devices. The push to make everything wireless is a lazy way out of the lack of infrastructure. Wire a building correctly and use wireless where appropriate. We have cordless / battery operated tools and appliances but that does not make a cord and plug obsolete.

You can leave future wires in the wall but they are suppose to be labeled on both ends so they are not considered abandoned. Don't forget to run cable to where you will put your wireless access points.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Everything that does not move should be networked with copper. Printers, TVs, cameras, desktops, entertainment, appliance etc.... the only wireless devices should be portable. Cell phones, laptops, etc..... this will greatly improve the performance of the network and the wireless devices. The push to make everything wireless is a lazy way out...
I agree with that 100%!

-Hal
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
While you're specifying 4-"inch" conduit, be sure to specify those large-radius elbows we see in the pneumatic-tube messenger systems at the banks' drive-throughs, so next years cables & connectors will pull easily. :LOL:
You don't want to sharp of bends on the cables anyway, it may inhibit data transmission speeds. ;)
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Likely everything will be wireless as it's speed increases. I can see moving away from service to the premises and each device linking up to the provider like cell phones do today. Eventually service will be supplied by satellite.

-Hal
Unless they open more spectrum, going to all wireless in a house is a huge mistake. I have Cat6 everywhere because it's the only way to keep the bandwidth high enough from one computer to the next.

ObOnTopic: Empty smurf is the way to go. The guy who bought my house in Texas re-ran all the Cat5E I put in 20-ish years ago with Cat7 so he could run HDMI-over-Ethernet. I can't imagine needing Cat7, so I'm re-wiring this place with Cat6, a structured media cabinet and commercial-grade managed switch in the basement.
 

tortuga

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Another thing to consider it the way the comm cables are installed, it does not matter how much you spend on cables if they are ruined in the install.
I have been told they need to be kept a foot away from the Romex and only cross at right angles etc..

In new houses we run 1 cat5 (POTS) 1 cat6 (Internet) and 1 coax to each room.
A cat5 to any fixed appliance that might be smart, like heatpump waterheater, irrigation control, camera locations.
If you have a A/V media need say for a HDMI run to say a projector or something hire someone to run fiber.
You can get 6 pair cat5 ( I think Essex makes it) like the old 6 pair cat 3 then you could do one run of that to each room and have two spare pairs for POTS, IR remote repeter / future whatever.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Another thing to consider it the way the comm cables are installed, it does not matter how much you spend on cables if they are ruined in the install.
I have been told they need to be kept a foot away from the Romex and only cross at right angles etc..

In new houses we run 1 cat5 (POTS) 1 cat6 (Internet) and 1 coax to each room.
A cat5 to any fixed appliance that might be smart, like heatpump waterheater, irrigation control, camera locations.
If you have a A/V media need say for a HDMI run to say a projector or something hire someone to run fiber.
You can get 6 pair cat5 ( I think Essex makes it) like the old 6 pair cat 3 then you could do one run of that to each room and have two spare pairs for POTS, IR remote repeter / future whatever.
Probably good idea to try to do this as a general practice, but I also think most the time it won't have too serious consequences unless you are looking for all you can get performance wise out of the cable, and in order to do that you need pretty high speed ability from incoming services or same abilities from your on site connected equipment.

I haven't kept up with what is currently available, but I know 10-15 years ago Cat 5e was overkill most the time because ISP's commonly seen in this area couldn't deliver fast enough that Cat5e would even be pushed even the slightest.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
I haven't kept up with what is currently available, but I know 10-15 years ago Cat 5e was overkill most the time because ISP's commonly seen in this area couldn't deliver fast enough that Cat5e would even be pushed even the slightest.
As far as ISP that's still true. 5e is still capable of Gigabit which is the fastest common residential service. (Common among the fastest connections) Homes still wont saturate a 1 Gig FIOS connection at home.

The reason for more is on the LAN side. If you have a file server, do media editing, or multiple 4K streams internally you may need more then 5e but that's still rare. The throughput is always less than the nominal speed so 1GB ethernet may run 600-800Mbps for LAN based file sharing. The longer the run and the more imperfections in the cabling the less that throughput will be will be. Not to mention any noise. So 5e will still do it all, but as far as "futureproofing" you may run out of bandwidth on 5e internally, not likely on the ISP side.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
As far as ISP that's still true. 5e is still capable of Gigabit which is the fastest common residential service. (Common among the fastest connections) Homes still wont saturate a 1 Gig FIOS connection at home.

The reason for more is on the LAN side. If you have a file server, do media editing, or multiple 4K streams internally you may need more then 5e but that's still rare. The throughput is always less than the nominal speed so 1GB ethernet may run 600-800Mbps for LAN based file sharing. The longer the run and the more imperfections in the cabling the less that throughput will be will be. Not to mention any noise. So 5e will still do it all, but as far as "futureproofing" you may run out of bandwidth on 5e internally, not likely on the ISP side.
Yes the LAN in a non dwelling may need more abilities. In a Dwelling (which I think was what we were talking about in OP) 5e is still plenty of cable for today's needs.
 
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