I am looking at job where a customer is moving a hot tub from inside on a concrete slab to outside on a concrete slab. The install inside has a #8 green solid poking out of the cement to the ground bar in the tub. This is a older house and we are on the 02 code so what could this wire be for? Is bonding the rebar in concrete required.
Existing hot tub bond wire.
- Thread starter jes25
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Sounds like it was bonded to an equipotential bonding grid within the concrete. This is a new requirement for the 2005 NEC. Look at 680.26(C) in the 2005. Under the 2002 is it not required.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Edited at 2:44 PM asking that you skip to my next post please, I made a bad mistake in this post by posting out of the 2005 cycle while referring to the 2002.
This will be debated as it has been for some time now.
2002 CYCLE
I am of the opinion that if the tub is on the outside and on a pad then it will need to be bonded to the concrete according to the 2002 cycle.
I believe that the 1999 cycle required this bonding of a hot tub installed on the outside as outlined in:
edited to add;
The above quote is from the ?05 cycle. I have made a correction to my post following Iwire?s or two post down. Please disregard the above post.
[ September 19, 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Edited at 2:44 PM asking that you skip to my next post please, I made a bad mistake in this post by posting out of the 2005 cycle while referring to the 2002.
This will be debated as it has been for some time now.
2002 CYCLE
As can be seen this bonding of the concrete is NOT new to the 2005 cycle of the code it has been talked about more.
I am of the opinion that if the tub is on the outside and on a pad then it will need to be bonded to the concrete according to the 2002 cycle.
I believe that the 1999 cycle required this bonding of a hot tub installed on the outside as outlined in:
In years past the way some sorry lazy no good for nothing people would get around this was to omit any and all types of metal from the walk way so they could get out of doing something. CMP 17 came along and said that no matter how sorry and lazy you are you going to bond this concrete even if we have to make the electrician install the grid therefore the changes in the 2005 cycle.
edited to add;
The above quote is from the ?05 cycle. I have made a correction to my post following Iwire?s or two post down. Please disregard the above post.
[ September 19, 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Under the 2002 NEC if the existing outdoor slab has metal reinforcing it must be bonded to the tub.
If the slab was poured without metal reinforcing than you have nothing to do.
Under the 2002 NEC if the existing outdoor slab has metal reinforcing it must be bonded to the tub.
If the slab was poured without metal reinforcing than you have nothing to do.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
I made a mistake in my First post by quoting the '05 cycle. This has been correctec here:
Can see Bob in 680.22 (b) (3) where I see the requirement to provide the #8 copper if the steel was not present.
This will be debated as it has been for some time now.
2002 CYCLE
I am of the opinion that if the tub is on the outside and on a pad then it will need to be bonded to the concrete according to the 2002 cycle.
I believe that the 1999 cycle required this bonding of a hot tub installed on the outside as outlined in:
I made a mistake in my First post by quoting the '05 cycle. This has been correctec here:
Can see Bob in 680.22 (b) (3) where I see the requirement to provide the #8 copper if the steel was not present.
This will be debated as it has been for some time now.
2002 CYCLE
As can be seen this bonding of the concrete is NOT new to the 2005 cycle of the code it has been talked about more.
I am of the opinion that if the tub is on the outside and on a pad then it will need to be bonded to the concrete according to the 2002 cycle.
I believe that the 1999 cycle required this bonding of a hot tub installed on the outside as outlined in:
In years past the way some sorry lazy no good for nothing people would get around this was to omit any and all types of metal from the walk way so they could get out of doing something. CMP 17 came along and said that no matter how sorry and lazy you are you going to bond this concrete even if we have to make the electrician install the grid therefore the changes in the 2005 cycle.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Mike I am not following you, can you check your 2002 section references [680.22 (b) (3) ?] and forget about the 2005 for now?
You have my curiosity peaked.
Thanks, Bob
Mike I am not following you, can you check your 2002 section references [680.22 (b) (3) ?] and forget about the 2005 for now?
You have my curiosity peaked.
Thanks, Bob
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
I got too many of these things under one search engine and sometime I will be posting from the wrong one.
This is the 2002 and the way it was explained to me at a Level III inspectors class.
Now if we move on down to 680.26 (C) we will find out what this bonding grid can be made of.
I know it is a little late now but this is how I taught through out the 2002 cycle.
Yes I sure am glad that I found these sites and the wisdom of these members to show the error of my ways.
What do you think or anybody else who would like to teach me something. My ears are open.
I got too many of these things under one search engine and sometime I will be posting from the wrong one.
This is the 2002 and the way it was explained to me at a Level III inspectors class.
Moving to part II
Here we are told that the coping stones, and deck, shall be bonded, but how?
Here we are told that if the rebar is encapsulated or in other words insulated we are to provisions shall be made for an alternate means to eliminate voltage gradients
Now if we move on down to 680.26 (C) we will find out what this bonding grid can be made of.
I was taught in March of 2002 that if the walk didn?t have any rebar then a solid #8 could be ran around the walkway and this was the grid as outlined in 680.26 (B)(1).
I know it is a little late now but this is how I taught through out the 2002 cycle.
Yes I sure am glad that I found these sites and the wisdom of these members to show the error of my ways.
What do you think or anybody else who would like to teach me something. My ears are open.
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
I think he's got the article number wrong. In 2002 bonding would be 680.26
I think he's got the article number wrong. In 2002 bonding would be 680.26
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Thanks Mike and I know when putting posts together mistakes are easily made.
[ September 19, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Thanks Mike and I know when putting posts together mistakes are easily made.
[ September 19, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
I would agree with Bob on that. I don't see it that way in 2002 code.
also I don't think anybody was lazy or trying to get away with something by not installing wire mesh under pavers around pools. I never seen wire mesh or rebar under pavers. Just sand or stone dust.
[ September 19, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: fc ]
I would agree with Bob on that. I don't see it that way in 2002 code.
also I don't think anybody was lazy or trying to get away with something by not installing wire mesh under pavers around pools. I never seen wire mesh or rebar under pavers. Just sand or stone dust.
[ September 19, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: fc ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
I can't see it, can you?
It must not be there.
If you really wanted to know maybe a metal detector?
I can't see it, can you?
It must not be there.
If you really wanted to know maybe a metal detector?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
I'm with Bob and FC if it's under the 2002 and there is no requirement for a bonding grid within the concrete. Under the 2005 it would be required.
I'm with Bob and FC if it's under the 2002 and there is no requirement for a bonding grid within the concrete. Under the 2005 it would be required.
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
No but if he's installing the tub on an existing slab I am sure there is wire mesh or rebar in it and in 2002 code he would have to bond it.
No but if he's installing the tub on an existing slab I am sure there is wire mesh or rebar in it and in 2002 code he would have to bond it.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
If there is a rebar present in the decking that is encapsulated then we are required to place something in the decking media that will act as the unencapsulated rebar would have.
What started happing was the pool people would pour fiber reinforced concrete instead of using a rebar that could be bonded to therefore we have the change in the 2005.
I think it was in the proposals for the 1999 cycle that some one was trying to get a piece of stainless installed on the inside of all pools to bond the water. Do you remember hearing anything about this?
I agree with you in principle but before I totally dismiss my though I would like to take a real close look at the last sentence of 680.26 (B)(1)
This is where the #8 mentioned in (C) will come into play.
If there is a rebar present in the decking that is encapsulated then we are required to place something in the decking media that will act as the unencapsulated rebar would have.
What started happing was the pool people would pour fiber reinforced concrete instead of using a rebar that could be bonded to therefore we have the change in the 2005.
I think it was in the proposals for the 1999 cycle that some one was trying to get a piece of stainless installed on the inside of all pools to bond the water. Do you remember hearing anything about this?
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Well get out the hammer and chisels and or use a core bit need to do a little digging
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
If there is no steel there is no bonding.
I agree from the NECs side the fiber is useless.
But lets cut to the chase.
What does this say?
It's all water under the bridge as for 2005 it is spelled out clearly and specifically.
I agree if it's there it needs bonding, but don't assume all slabs have steel in them see below.
I agree entirely if there is encapsulated steel in the deck we must find a way to bond it.
If there is no steel there is no bonding.
This is not lazy or sleazy from the standpoint of the cement contractor, the fiber reinforcement is a great product, try to break it up.
I agree from the NECs side the fiber is useless.
But lets cut to the chase.
What does this say?
Yes I did remove 'bare' but the fact there was an 'or' there allows me to do that.
It's all water under the bridge as for 2005 it is spelled out clearly and specifically.
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
[ September 19, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: fc ]
Anyway you look at it they made the change in 05 for the better. Now we know what that something is.Originally posted by jwelectric:
I agree with you in principle but before I totally dismiss my though I would like to take a real close look at the last sentence of 680.26 (B)(1)
This is where the #8 mentioned in (C) will come into play.
Yes but they did not tell us how it was to come into play. I think that's why the change in 05
As Bob said before
"In this 2002 version the 'grid' is not really a 'grid' at all. It can be just a collection of metal parts connected by an insulated solid copper conductor not smaller than 8 AWG. "
If there is a rebar present in the decking that is encapsulated then we are required to place something in the decking media that will act as the unencapsulated rebar would have.
I agree but what is Something?
What started happing was the pool people would pour fiber reinforced concrete instead of using a rebar that could be bonded to therefore we have the change in the 2005.
I think it was in the proposals for the 1999 cycle that some one was trying to get a piece of stainless installed on the inside of all pools to bond the water. Do you remember hearing anything about this?
[ September 19, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: fc ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Agreed.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Existing hot tub bond wire.
Well Bob this post will make me 1257 and you have 7128 a difference of 5871. I will keep trying.
Edited: you done posted again (Posts: 7129)
[ September 19, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Well Bob this post will make me 1257 and you have 7128 a difference of 5871. I will keep trying.
Edited: you done posted again (Posts: 7129)
[ September 19, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
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