Engineer's work

[bwyllie]

What are other's policy or opinions on how far an engineer should document site work? Such as, should an engineer remove panelboard covers or trough covers to document wire sizes, current readings, etc within such panelboard or trough. Also, should an engineer remove the cover to a piece of equipment, such as a HVAC unit, kitchen appliance, etc to take current and voltage readings in the course of an investigation.
My company's philosophy as always been to do all of this even though we are not licensed electricians and wouldn't taking readings on an appliance void any warranty of any service contracts on that appliance that the customer may have?
Thanks

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I can see this work being performed by engineers, with the proper training and PPE involved.

Have you had any training for this other than the results you are looking for? Safety training is really what I am driving at.

 

[oliver100]

IMO if you are in this business you should be able to perform all of the above.

 

[ron]

We (engineers) perform those tasks every day. Without removing a panel cover for inspection, we couldn't verify an existing condition.
There are some clients that have on site staff, so we utilize those folks to remove the covers when they are available.

 

[dereckbc]

ditto as an engineer I have a right to inspect work and do it on a daily basis. There are certain local circumstances when I have to have a electrician remove the covers for access, but I perform the inspection which include voltage/current readings, torque inspection, ect.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Engineer's work

I generally draw the line in the following manner. I can take off a panel cover to look inside, without asking for the assistance of an electrician. If I need to reach inside to take measurements or to move wires (i.e., to verify wire sizes), then I will at least notify someone at the building of my intent, and ask that they provide an electrician to work with me. If there is a need to change the position of any switch or breaker, or if there is a need to disconnect any wires, I will not proceed until an operator or electrician is present, and I will let them do those types of tasks.

. . . and wouldn't taking readings on an appliance void any warranty of any service contracts on that appliance that the customer may have?

Taking readings would not void a warranty. But if you have to unscrew a cover to get inside an appliance in order to take those readings, that might void the warranty.

 

[steve66]

I know this is a very touchy subject, but maybe Charlie will allow it if we stick to the facts: Has anyone had any issues with unions when doing electrical work like removing covers? I.e. Someone claimed you aren't allowed to do that?

I don't want any opinions on wrong or right, I just want to know if this is ever an issue, or can I freely wave my screwdriver around in front of the electricians?

Steve

 

[MJJBEE]

I don't want any opinions on wrong or right, I just want to know if this is ever an issue, or can I freely wave my screwdriver around in front of the electricians?

Steve

At my work it depends on what plant you are in. I can think of one where I don't bring my screwdriver inside and another where it isn't a problem. It depends on the personalities of people inside and the electrical foreman.

 

[charlie b]

It is a touchy subject, and I'll keep an eye on its progress.

I can report, as a simple statement of fact, that when I worked for a certain electric utility, the engineers were instructed not to bring tools into the plant. That was because of an agreement reached between the company management and the bargaining unit. The agreement included a provision to the effect that persons who were not members of the bargaining unit were not permitted to use tools within the plant. We were told not to bring tools in order to avoid any questions or concerns about our intentions to use the tools.

To that I will add that in any facility, regardless of the relationship of employer and employees, if an electrician were to come upon an engineer reaching into a panel with pliers or a screwdriver, I would hope that the electrician would ask what was going on. I would also hope that the company management would encourage the electrician to ask what was going on.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I agree that engineers need to qualify some work at times and be able to look inside of enclosures.

My question is, do engineers have to follow OSHA requirements and use the proper PPE when opening live enclosures? Such as hardhat, proper shoes, proper clothing, eye protection, hearing protection, proper rated gloves... or more depending on the flash level. Properly insulated tools, when necessary???


Actually do engineers even think of these types of things? I know what goes on in my neck of the woods, just curious about outside my area. :wink:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Pierre,

My question is, do engineers have to follow OSHA requirements and use the proper PPE when opening live enclosures? Such as hardhat, proper shoes, proper clothing, eye protection, hearing protection, proper rated gloves... or more depending on the flash level. Properly insulated tools, when necessary???

All employees, including engineers and inspectors, must comply with the OSHA rules. If you are self employed, the OSHA rules do not apply to you.
Don

 

[steve66]

Actually do engineers even think of these types of things?

Actually, I seem to think about it a lot more than any electricians I've worked with. I cringe when they casually get that close to hot terminals, or when they strain to pull that 500KCM cable out far enough to get the clamp-on ammeter around it.

And they don't seem to have any more PPE than I do, which is basically none.

I assume they are more comfortable with it since they work on it every day, and I usually spend most days in front of a computer.

Steve

 

[charlie b]

My question is, do engineers have to follow OSHA requirements and use the proper PPE when opening live enclosures? . . . Actually do engineers even think of these types of things?

Alright, I'll confess. I should have, but I have not. The last time I opened a panel in the line of work was several years ago, and I did not think about PPE. I don't even know if the phrase PPE had been invented yet. I probably had told myself that I didn't need gloves or any other gear, as I was only looking inside. Would that have been true? Do you need any kind of PPE to remove a cover and look inside?

The last time I opened a panel for personal reasons (i.e., at home) was yesterday afternoon, and here again I did not use PPE. But then, I wasn't doing anything inside the panel. I was patching and repairing the drywall around the panel (it had been torn up by the electrician who replaced the old Zinsco panel).

So you are right, Pierre. It is a fair question and a valid concern. Engineers do need to be instructed in the proper use of PPE.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Steve,

I assume they are more comfortable with it since they work on it every day, and I usually spend most days in front of a computer.

Being comfortable with it is not a good thing...that will often lead to accidents because it is too comfortable. I think it will take the next generation of electrical workers, before the majority is using the required PPE.
Don

 

[steve66]

Don:

I didn't mean to imply their comfort was a good thing. I was just stating what I have observed

What I meant to imply, is that Pierre probably needs to worry more about the electricians. The engineers, in general, are going to be less comfortable working inside live panels.

Steve

 

[ron]

I have verbally beaten our HR folks because I preach PPE and arc flash calculations most of the day, and my employer is terrible about providing the required PPE and time to perform the analysis for our own work.

Some client facilities require the electrician to remove the cover and take measurements, and it is typically the union shops although I can't generalize as sometimes it can be either way.

 

[rbalex]

Pierre,

My question is, do engineers have to follow OSHA requirements and use the proper PPE when opening live enclosures? Such as hardhat, proper shoes, proper clothing, eye protection, hearing protection, proper rated gloves... or more depending on the flash level. Properly insulated tools, when necessary???

All employees, including engineers and inspectors, must comply with the OSHA rules. If you are self employed, the OSHA rules do not apply to you.
Don

[rbalex bold added]
This is the bottom line - if an employer/employee relationship exists OSHA applies - and it is the employer's responsibility to see that it is followed. If an employee fails to follow the rules, it is presumed they were not properly trained.

 

[petersonra]

It seems to depend on a lot of factors, and the answer seems to run the gamut.

Some places just don't care one way or the other.

Other places don't care as long as you are not doing any "real" work. Debugging, testing, and calibrating seem to be some of the things not considered "real" work, although the list varies from place to place.

I went into one plant a number of years ago and happened to have a small screwdriver in my shirt pocket. The union threatened to file a grievance claiming I was taking work away from their members. I agreed to put it in my briefcase. That was deemed acceptable. I think this was the same place it took six or seven employees to calibrate a pressure switch (really!).

I know this is a very touchy subject, but maybe Charlie will allow it if we stick to the facts: Has anyone had any issues with unions when doing electrical work like removing covers? I.e. Someone claimed you aren't allowed to do that?

I don't want any opinions on wrong or right, I just want to know if this is ever an issue, or can I freely wave my screwdriver around in front of the electricians?

Steve

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

My question was more rhetoric, than a question. I am aware that most people are aware of the dangers and the requirement of PPE. I am not trying to be a buster, but I am a safety nut on the jobs, on the post and in the meetings I go to (I have an IAEI meeting tonight). I bring up safety whereever I am. I know most do not want to hear it, I just figure some may finally do it each time I say something.
We have several shops that now practice the safety meetings and PPE in the last couple of years and I like to think my PIA attitude towards it have something to do with it.

 

[tkb]

Union vs Merit Shop, who cares. We all have to eat.

I did a job at a Navel Sub base in CT once for an engineer.
We opened manholes, set up the safety protection, sniffed for gasses, pumped out the water, set up the ventilator and ladder and lights.

Once the manhole was ready for the engineer to enter all he brought was a pad of paper and a pen down.

He was charting the ducts for a route for some high voltage from the substation to the sub docks.

We had nothing to do while he was underground.

We were able to get right up to the nuclear subs. This was a very cool job. Too bad it only lasted a few days. Security was very tight to get on the base the first day.

I really don?t think that a lot of engineers have the mechanical ability to be accessing live electrical equipment.

Please don?t take this as an insult, but over the past 30 years in this trade I have not seen very many engineers that I would be able to do this safely without assistance from an electrician. I have assisted in some investigation for engineers that were designing modifications to existing equipment and buildings. I even gave some opinions about the installation problems that whoever does the job will come against.

I had to go to a meeting a few months back at a very large Indian casino in south eastern CT with some design engineers about tapping a 480 volt 4000 amp switch gear HOT for a 1200 amp feeder. They did not want to shut down the gear for this because it shut down a portion of the casino.

We had 2 engineers, myself and another electrical contractor with 20 years experience, and a very experienced high voltage contractor to look at this.

The engineer wanted us to say this could be safely done HOT.
We all told him it was crazy and that we could not do it. It would require drilling the live buss and adding the lugs. Also the buss bars had a space between them that would have to have a small filler bar installed.
They still would not shut down the gear, but they redesigned the setup so an 800 amp breaker could be plugged in an available space in the switchboard.

Sometimes an electricians input is valuable to an engineer to make the design realistic.

A pretty picture is nice, but if it cannot be built after the design we as electricians get blamed for it.

Also engineers don?t like to get dirty. :lol: :lol: