artec
Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Does anyone here work with engineers to get sealed and stamped drawings? If so, what is a reasonable fee for such services?
Engineering Services
- Thread starter artec
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Re: Engineering Services
That's a wide open question. Some states when you stamp it means that you take responsibility and better have good insurance. Other states, if you do not do the plans yourself and sign someone else's plan, you loose your license. You're listed as a consultant, what do you charge?
That's a wide open question. Some states when you stamp it means that you take responsibility and better have good insurance. Other states, if you do not do the plans yourself and sign someone else's plan, you loose your license. You're listed as a consultant, what do you charge?
bonding jumper
Senior Member
Re: Engineering Services
More specific. Scope please. Are they signed and sealed drawings to design the new Nasa Space Station? or are u putting a deck on your pool?
More specific. Scope please. Are they signed and sealed drawings to design the new Nasa Space Station? or are u putting a deck on your pool?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Engineering Services
Perhaps I have misunderstood your question, but it appears to me that you are treading on thin ice here. Are you speaking about taking a completed set of design drawings to an engineer, and asking that person to sign and seal the drawings for a fee? If so, then you would be asking the engineer to violate state law and professional ethics.
There is a relatively common belief that an engineer?s seal is essentially a statement that the design is good, or that it meets code, or that it satisfies the client?s requirements, or that the engineer agrees with the design, or that the engineer is willing to take responsibility for the design. All are untrue. The engineer?s seal means one thing, and one thing only: That the work was performed by that engineer, or under that engineer?s supervision. The notion that the engineer is taking responsibility for the work is a natural result of having personally done (or supervised) the work.
If the project is going to require an engineer?s seal, then you need to be talking to the engineer at an early stage in the design. The amount of fee that would be appropriate would depend on how much time the engineer must spend, either to perform the design, or to satisfy his or her own conscience that his or her own brain was sufficiently engaged in all design decisions to be able to call it ?supervision.?
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Added information: I am licensed as a Professional Engineer in nine states, and have been licensed in two others. I am yet to encounter a state that views an engineer?s seal in any way other than what I described above.
[ November 21, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Perhaps I have misunderstood your question, but it appears to me that you are treading on thin ice here. Are you speaking about taking a completed set of design drawings to an engineer, and asking that person to sign and seal the drawings for a fee? If so, then you would be asking the engineer to violate state law and professional ethics.
There is a relatively common belief that an engineer?s seal is essentially a statement that the design is good, or that it meets code, or that it satisfies the client?s requirements, or that the engineer agrees with the design, or that the engineer is willing to take responsibility for the design. All are untrue. The engineer?s seal means one thing, and one thing only: That the work was performed by that engineer, or under that engineer?s supervision. The notion that the engineer is taking responsibility for the work is a natural result of having personally done (or supervised) the work.
If the project is going to require an engineer?s seal, then you need to be talking to the engineer at an early stage in the design. The amount of fee that would be appropriate would depend on how much time the engineer must spend, either to perform the design, or to satisfy his or her own conscience that his or her own brain was sufficiently engaged in all design decisions to be able to call it ?supervision.?
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Added information: I am licensed as a Professional Engineer in nine states, and have been licensed in two others. I am yet to encounter a state that views an engineer?s seal in any way other than what I described above.
[ November 21, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
artec
Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Engineering Services
I am talking about creating engineered drawings from scratch. I have seen estimates ranging from 2% to 6% of the electrical buildout for a 15,000 SF office space.
I am talking about creating engineered drawings from scratch. I have seen estimates ranging from 2% to 6% of the electrical buildout for a 15,000 SF office space.
artec
Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Engineering Services
If the electrical buildout cost is not available, then anywhere from 40 to 60 cents/SF. These are quotes usually to architects, however, more and more contractors are working on design-build projects. These projects are fast paced and designed to the parameters set by the contractor.
I am trying to find out what the contractors are usually accustomed to pay.
If the electrical buildout cost is not available, then anywhere from 40 to 60 cents/SF. These are quotes usually to architects, however, more and more contractors are working on design-build projects. These projects are fast paced and designed to the parameters set by the contractor.
I am trying to find out what the contractors are usually accustomed to pay.
G
Guest
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Re: Engineering Services
This is very interesting to me. Any draftsman can draw blueprints. In fact, many engineers employ draftsmen to do their drawings. The engineer does the calculations & the sizing on the blueprints. The engineer puts his/her seal of approval on the blueprints.
Am I hearing that actually the engineer has to do his/her own drawings? That's a new concept for me.
I would suppose that many engineers even sub out the drafting. In that context would it matter who did the drawings?
I'm assuming too that the engineer would insist on sending somebody from the firm (or a subcontractor) over to supervise or inspect the work at appropriate (or critical points. Many times this person is not trained. That part always bothered me. Is that standard trade practice? The more oversight the better in my estimation. It's my experience that it's the call of the engineer as to how much supervision s/he is willing to provide-- whether it be minimal or whether it be full-time. The engineer has to decide how much supervision is necessary and cost-effective-- as does the client-- but the final call is by the engineer who stamps the blueprints.
I'm not being argumentative, it's just a new concept for me (or I'm missing something). How much supervision does an engineer have to provide to satisfy the ethical & legal requirements? Does the engineer actually have to draft the blueprints? I'm all ears. All helpful replies are appreciated.
[ November 21, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
This is very interesting to me. Any draftsman can draw blueprints. In fact, many engineers employ draftsmen to do their drawings. The engineer does the calculations & the sizing on the blueprints. The engineer puts his/her seal of approval on the blueprints.
Am I hearing that actually the engineer has to do his/her own drawings? That's a new concept for me.
I would suppose that many engineers even sub out the drafting. In that context would it matter who did the drawings?
I'm assuming too that the engineer would insist on sending somebody from the firm (or a subcontractor) over to supervise or inspect the work at appropriate (or critical points. Many times this person is not trained. That part always bothered me. Is that standard trade practice? The more oversight the better in my estimation. It's my experience that it's the call of the engineer as to how much supervision s/he is willing to provide-- whether it be minimal or whether it be full-time. The engineer has to decide how much supervision is necessary and cost-effective-- as does the client-- but the final call is by the engineer who stamps the blueprints.
I'm not being argumentative, it's just a new concept for me (or I'm missing something). How much supervision does an engineer have to provide to satisfy the ethical & legal requirements? Does the engineer actually have to draft the blueprints? I'm all ears. All helpful replies are appreciated.
[ November 21, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Engineering Services
Charlie you are obviously a man of integrity.
What you describe sounds great but I do not see it practiced that way.
A POCO shot down a service as drawn on the prints.
I called the engineer to make the changes, his response.
"You draw what they want and send it to me"
I designed it and drew it up faxed it to him it came back cleaned up and otherwise unchanged, except for his stamp.
Is that a problem? I did not think so, he I assumed looked it over and decided it was good to go.
As bonding jumper said NASA space station or deck on a house.
All I am asking is what is the cut off point, does the engineer need to design every branch circuit or does he just need to know the total load and design around that?
Charlie you are obviously a man of integrity.
What you describe sounds great but I do not see it practiced that way.
A POCO shot down a service as drawn on the prints.
I called the engineer to make the changes, his response.
"You draw what they want and send it to me"
I designed it and drew it up faxed it to him it came back cleaned up and otherwise unchanged, except for his stamp.
Is that a problem? I did not think so, he I assumed looked it over and decided it was good to go.
As bonding jumper said NASA space station or deck on a house.
All I am asking is what is the cut off point, does the engineer need to design every branch circuit or does he just need to know the total load and design around that?
Re: Engineering Services
Bob and Wayne:
Charlie isn't implying the engineer has to do all the drawings, or even all the design. I think his key point is that the engineer has to "supervise" the design. It is somewhat hard to define exactly how much "supervision" is needed, and every engineer probably has a different idea exactly how much supervision is required.
In Bob's situation of drawing what the power company wanted, and then the engineer checked it, I would consider that acceptable supervision. However, if Bob drew plans for a 15 story building, and then sent them to the engineer for approval and checking, that would not be acceptable supervision no matter how much checking the engineer did.
The one thing about supervision that is clear is that the engineer has to be involved from the early phases so he/she can direct the direction that the design goes.
On the other hand, if an engineer reviews a design that is already completed, he/she usually finds problems. At the latter stage in design, the solutions to these problems tend to be more patchwork, and the design as a whole tends to be less desirable.
I think Wayne is bringing up another issue of checking the work the contractor is doing to see if it meets the design requirements. This is sometimes called "construction observation". Maybe Charlie would like to comment on what's required of engineers in this area?
Steve
Bob and Wayne:
Charlie isn't implying the engineer has to do all the drawings, or even all the design. I think his key point is that the engineer has to "supervise" the design. It is somewhat hard to define exactly how much "supervision" is needed, and every engineer probably has a different idea exactly how much supervision is required.
In Bob's situation of drawing what the power company wanted, and then the engineer checked it, I would consider that acceptable supervision. However, if Bob drew plans for a 15 story building, and then sent them to the engineer for approval and checking, that would not be acceptable supervision no matter how much checking the engineer did.
The one thing about supervision that is clear is that the engineer has to be involved from the early phases so he/she can direct the direction that the design goes.
On the other hand, if an engineer reviews a design that is already completed, he/she usually finds problems. At the latter stage in design, the solutions to these problems tend to be more patchwork, and the design as a whole tends to be less desirable.
I think Wayne is bringing up another issue of checking the work the contractor is doing to see if it meets the design requirements. This is sometimes called "construction observation". Maybe Charlie would like to comment on what's required of engineers in this area?
Steve
Re: Engineering Services
Draw the parallel of the contractor or master electrician on the job, who has several journeyman and apprentice electricians working for him. The job is his responsibility legally, but does he have to physically install every pipe and wirenut? Same as the engineer. He hires help, but the responsibility lies with him.
Draw the parallel of the contractor or master electrician on the job, who has several journeyman and apprentice electricians working for him. The job is his responsibility legally, but does he have to physically install every pipe and wirenut? Same as the engineer. He hires help, but the responsibility lies with him.
bonding jumper
Senior Member
Re: Engineering Services
As IWIRE stated, this happens often in building design. The Electrical drawings are, for the most part a guideline. Things that are scruetenized are mostly panel sizes, disconnect sizes, wire sizes, conduit sizes, no so much branch circuits. Durring a project, the contractor will use the engineering drawings for bidding purposes, and then construction. But since in NYC, electrical drawings are the responsibility of the Electrical Contractor, he always has the right to change somthing if he feels its not to code. There is note that most engineers put in their drawings specifications that says, "... or approved alternative" or "Electrical contractor to submit shop drawings prior to starting work." So if the contractor knows a way to do somthing on the plans that makes it easier for him, or cheaper, he can ask for those changes and the engineer will approve them as long as it dosn't create an code violation or design problem. This happens more frequently in rehabilition jobs, where hidden conditions can cause an engineer to make an educated guess.
As IWIRE stated, this happens often in building design. The Electrical drawings are, for the most part a guideline. Things that are scruetenized are mostly panel sizes, disconnect sizes, wire sizes, conduit sizes, no so much branch circuits. Durring a project, the contractor will use the engineering drawings for bidding purposes, and then construction. But since in NYC, electrical drawings are the responsibility of the Electrical Contractor, he always has the right to change somthing if he feels its not to code. There is note that most engineers put in their drawings specifications that says, "... or approved alternative" or "Electrical contractor to submit shop drawings prior to starting work." So if the contractor knows a way to do somthing on the plans that makes it easier for him, or cheaper, he can ask for those changes and the engineer will approve them as long as it dosn't create an code violation or design problem. This happens more frequently in rehabilition jobs, where hidden conditions can cause an engineer to make an educated guess.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Engineering Services
Wayne: Drafting is not a design activity. It is a necessary facet of the design process, but the drafter?s only role is to create a drawing that contains the information that the engineer wants the drawing to contain. It is no different that the role of a typist who creates a clean and neat document from information that is hand-written or dictated by someone else.
Bob (Iwire): I understand your comment, and I have to admit that it is sometimes hard to draw a line. But an engineer is not required to come with ideas without any outside help. Nor is an engineer is forbidden to use design concepts ? even completed design details ? that were developed by someone else. In your example, the beginning of the design process was separated from the end of the design process by an extremely short period of time. Let?s look at the other extreme, and perhaps we can make it make sense. Suppose a person who does not have the PE license performs a complex design that took 6 months to complete. Suppose the completed documents are then presented, for the first time, to a licensed PE, with a request that the PE review and seal the documents. Finally, suppose the PE finds several things that he would have done differently. I don?t mean that he finds errors or code violations, but rather finds ways in which the design could have been significantly improved. The design complies with code, but not with "prudent engineering practice." If the PE had been aware of the original designer?s intended means and methods early in the design process, he could have requested (or even demanded) that changes be made. But now, if he rejects the design, the installation might be held up for months. The PE would be in an undesirable position: he must decide whether to let ?prudent engineering practice? take a back seat to time and money issues. The engineer?s fundamental duty to safeguard the health and safety of the public should never be challenged in this way.
I think that Steve66 covered the topic nicely. I like the way he described the role of the engineer. As to ?construction observation,? an engineer can be hired to take on that role. But it is not a design activity. It does not produce design documents to be used for future installation work. Therefore, it does not require the application of the engineer?s seal.
[ November 24, 2003, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Wayne: Drafting is not a design activity. It is a necessary facet of the design process, but the drafter?s only role is to create a drawing that contains the information that the engineer wants the drawing to contain. It is no different that the role of a typist who creates a clean and neat document from information that is hand-written or dictated by someone else.
Bob (Iwire): I understand your comment, and I have to admit that it is sometimes hard to draw a line. But an engineer is not required to come with ideas without any outside help. Nor is an engineer is forbidden to use design concepts ? even completed design details ? that were developed by someone else. In your example, the beginning of the design process was separated from the end of the design process by an extremely short period of time. Let?s look at the other extreme, and perhaps we can make it make sense. Suppose a person who does not have the PE license performs a complex design that took 6 months to complete. Suppose the completed documents are then presented, for the first time, to a licensed PE, with a request that the PE review and seal the documents. Finally, suppose the PE finds several things that he would have done differently. I don?t mean that he finds errors or code violations, but rather finds ways in which the design could have been significantly improved. The design complies with code, but not with "prudent engineering practice." If the PE had been aware of the original designer?s intended means and methods early in the design process, he could have requested (or even demanded) that changes be made. But now, if he rejects the design, the installation might be held up for months. The PE would be in an undesirable position: he must decide whether to let ?prudent engineering practice? take a back seat to time and money issues. The engineer?s fundamental duty to safeguard the health and safety of the public should never be challenged in this way.
I think that Steve66 covered the topic nicely. I like the way he described the role of the engineer. As to ?construction observation,? an engineer can be hired to take on that role. But it is not a design activity. It does not produce design documents to be used for future installation work. Therefore, it does not require the application of the engineer?s seal.
[ November 24, 2003, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
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