Employment
- Thread starter actionjoe
- Start date
- Status
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Employment
It depends entirely on what the laws are where you live. There's no federal law that prevents this kind of discrimination, but state and local laws vary. I've lived in cities that did have laws prohibiting such discrimination. In one case that made the news, an applicant for a parking-garage attendant position was offered the job but was told he would have to shave his beard. He filed a complaint with the local authorities and won. The company was headquartered in another city and didn't know the local laws. Oops.
The law in my state doesn't specifically prohibit discrimination based on appearance, and it does say you can discriminate if there is a bona fide occupational need. For example, it seems to me someone could be required to shave a beard if he had to wear a respirator and couldn't get a proper seal unless he was clean-shaven.
These kinds of laws are usually anything but clear-cut, and there are several protected classes (e.g., suppose a Sikh applied for the apprenticeship; their religion forbids them from cutting their hair or shaving their beards).
This is the kind of thing only a competent lawyer can answer, so don't take my information as definitive.
It depends entirely on what the laws are where you live. There's no federal law that prevents this kind of discrimination, but state and local laws vary. I've lived in cities that did have laws prohibiting such discrimination. In one case that made the news, an applicant for a parking-garage attendant position was offered the job but was told he would have to shave his beard. He filed a complaint with the local authorities and won. The company was headquartered in another city and didn't know the local laws. Oops.
The law in my state doesn't specifically prohibit discrimination based on appearance, and it does say you can discriminate if there is a bona fide occupational need. For example, it seems to me someone could be required to shave a beard if he had to wear a respirator and couldn't get a proper seal unless he was clean-shaven.
These kinds of laws are usually anything but clear-cut, and there are several protected classes (e.g., suppose a Sikh applied for the apprenticeship; their religion forbids them from cutting their hair or shaving their beards).
This is the kind of thing only a competent lawyer can answer, so don't take my information as definitive.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Employment
Why would you want to? If the person seems to be capable of doing the job, if he comes with good performance references, if he has a good attitude and a good work ethic, if he has a sufficient background in math and science to handle the work for which he is applying, if he has some related work experience, if he has a friendly personality, and if you think he could succeed at the job, why would you want to discriminate for reasons of appearance?
For my part, if he wants to waste his hormones growing hair, that is his business.
LOL But that comes from someone who long ago adopted the ?bald is beautiful? perspective.
Why would you want to? If the person seems to be capable of doing the job, if he comes with good performance references, if he has a good attitude and a good work ethic, if he has a sufficient background in math and science to handle the work for which he is applying, if he has some related work experience, if he has a friendly personality, and if you think he could succeed at the job, why would you want to discriminate for reasons of appearance?
For my part, if he wants to waste his hormones growing hair, that is his business.
LOL But that comes from someone who long ago adopted the ?bald is beautiful? perspective.jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Employment
I agree with Charlie. I was only talking about the legalities involved. I speak as someone who currently owns a beard and has had long hair previously.
I once interviewed for a job with the National Security Agency, who you would expect would be very conservative appearance-wise. But I was told before I went that the only dress code they have is that you have to wear something (total nudity is frowned upon). When I went to their facility, I was shocked at what I saw. Some people looked like they just rolled out of bed and were still in their pajamas, other people were wearing suits, and everything in between. Grooming was also a completely mixed bag. They only cared about whether you can do the job.
I agree with Charlie. I was only talking about the legalities involved. I speak as someone who currently owns a beard and has had long hair previously.
I once interviewed for a job with the National Security Agency, who you would expect would be very conservative appearance-wise. But I was told before I went that the only dress code they have is that you have to wear something (total nudity is frowned upon). When I went to their facility, I was shocked at what I saw. Some people looked like they just rolled out of bed and were still in their pajamas, other people were wearing suits, and everything in between. Grooming was also a completely mixed bag. They only cared about whether you can do the job.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Employment
At the bare minimum it is unethical as hell.
At the bare minimum it is unethical as hell.
friebel
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsville, N.J.
Re: Employment
On the subject of long hair and a beard. If you are being hired to work in a industrial setting that requires the wearing of a respirator, etc., you will need to be clean-shaven. I worked in industry for some time,and this is an OSHA rule.
On the subject of long hair and a beard. If you are being hired to work in a industrial setting that requires the wearing of a respirator, etc., you will need to be clean-shaven. I worked in industry for some time,and this is an OSHA rule.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Employment
If you simply dont want him then just dont offer the job.You might be passing up a great electrician.So unless maybe this guy is to do service calls and might offend your customers why not hire him ?
If you simply dont want him then just dont offer the job.You might be passing up a great electrician.So unless maybe this guy is to do service calls and might offend your customers why not hire him ?
Re: Employment
actionjoe,
if this is a buisness you are starting up, you must spell out in detail the dress code, conduct code, ect... for your buisness from day one ( on printed buisness applications). you then must stick to those guidelines, no exceptions. you will then be restricted by not adding to your company guidelines if someone applies for a job that you don't like.
this was from a lawsuit several years ago. i can't remember the year. with today's legal system, i would see a lawyer first.
if there is a safety issue with his long hair, you must spell out the safety rules.
a food processing plant will require a hair net and also a facial hair net as well.
the rules can go on forever.
actionjoe,
if this is a buisness you are starting up, you must spell out in detail the dress code, conduct code, ect... for your buisness from day one ( on printed buisness applications). you then must stick to those guidelines, no exceptions. you will then be restricted by not adding to your company guidelines if someone applies for a job that you don't like.
this was from a lawsuit several years ago. i can't remember the year. with today's legal system, i would see a lawyer first.
if there is a safety issue with his long hair, you must spell out the safety rules.
a food processing plant will require a hair net and also a facial hair net as well.
the rules can go on forever.
Re: Employment
Well I checked with my lawyer and he states that I am right about what working standards my company requires. I just can't change mid stream for anyone else. I mean no harm to any of you out there with long hair, a beard or both. If thats you style and your customers don't mind then more power to you. My existing customers I know will not like the presence of someone that doesn't look neat and I assume new customers might be the same. So anyway I told the apprentice that in order to work here he would have to get a haircut, shave and not to wear ear rings during work hours.
Well I checked with my lawyer and he states that I am right about what working standards my company requires. I just can't change mid stream for anyone else. I mean no harm to any of you out there with long hair, a beard or both. If thats you style and your customers don't mind then more power to you. My existing customers I know will not like the presence of someone that doesn't look neat and I assume new customers might be the same. So anyway I told the apprentice that in order to work here he would have to get a haircut, shave and not to wear ear rings during work hours.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Employment
It might be a good idea to also ask a lawyer about how to avoid discriminating against protected classes. It's entirely possible that you might get a job applicant whose religion forbids him from shaving (we have people like that at my office), and to require him to shave without a bona fide work requirement is likely going to result in a discrimination complaint. Then, if you let him keep his beard to avoid discriminating against him on religious grounds, other employees can gripe that since he can have a beard, they should be able to as well.
My company deals with this by not having a lot of restrictions, and it seems to work pretty well. No one gets any special privileges that anyone else doesn't get, and no one is filing discrimination lawsuits.
It might be a good idea to also ask a lawyer about how to avoid discriminating against protected classes. It's entirely possible that you might get a job applicant whose religion forbids him from shaving (we have people like that at my office), and to require him to shave without a bona fide work requirement is likely going to result in a discrimination complaint. Then, if you let him keep his beard to avoid discriminating against him on religious grounds, other employees can gripe that since he can have a beard, they should be able to as well.
My company deals with this by not having a lot of restrictions, and it seems to work pretty well. No one gets any special privileges that anyone else doesn't get, and no one is filing discrimination lawsuits.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Employment
Why not just do what others have done for years ?
Have enterview and just tell him you will let him know.Then place his application in file 13
Why not just do what others have done for years ?
Have enterview and just tell him you will let him know.Then place his application in file 13
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Employment
Because that is an invitation to a lawsuit. Perhaps it has been done through the years, but it was risky each time it was done. In recent years, the processes of evaluating candidates, making hiring decisions, evaluating work load, and making lay off decisions have all undergone scrutiny in the courts.
Because that is an invitation to a lawsuit. Perhaps it has been done through the years, but it was risky each time it was done. In recent years, the processes of evaluating candidates, making hiring decisions, evaluating work load, and making lay off decisions have all undergone scrutiny in the courts.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Employment
It's also a slippery slope. If you don't want to hire someone with a beard and long hair because the customers aren't comfortable with such people, it's not long before you start thinking about only hiring white people because your customers aren't comfortable around someone whose background is African or Arab or whatever. Then you are clearly breaking the law.
This is why I think it's a bad idea to discriminate against any applicants for any reason other than whether they can do a good job. "Don't judge a book by its cover" really does apply.
We have an engineer in my office who has a beard and insists on perming his hair in a 70s-style that can only be described as "Brady Bunch". But he is universally acknowledged as the go-to guy if you run into a problem that's just too hard to solve, and we'd be in big trouble if we lost him. He's also a nice guy. Good thing the company doesn't have a "no beards" policy.
It's also a slippery slope. If you don't want to hire someone with a beard and long hair because the customers aren't comfortable with such people, it's not long before you start thinking about only hiring white people because your customers aren't comfortable around someone whose background is African or Arab or whatever. Then you are clearly breaking the law.
This is why I think it's a bad idea to discriminate against any applicants for any reason other than whether they can do a good job. "Don't judge a book by its cover" really does apply.
We have an engineer in my office who has a beard and insists on perming his hair in a 70s-style that can only be described as "Brady Bunch". But he is universally acknowledged as the go-to guy if you run into a problem that's just too hard to solve, and we'd be in big trouble if we lost him. He's also a nice guy. Good thing the company doesn't have a "no beards" policy.
william runkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Michigan
Re: Employment
I sure hope you have a dress and appearance code of ethics in writing with copies given to all employees. This is hypothetical situation for you what if one of your best journeyman has a case of midlife crises and comes to unshaven and stop getting haircuts, what will you do?
I sure hope you have a dress and appearance code of ethics in writing with copies given to all employees. This is hypothetical situation for you what if one of your best journeyman has a case of midlife crises and comes to unshaven and stop getting haircuts, what will you do?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Employment
I am still trying to comprehend that in 2004 that there are still people who are uncomfortable around people with beards and long hair.
I am still trying to comprehend that in 2004 that there are still people who are uncomfortable around people with beards and long hair.
mjf
Senior Member
Re: Employment
I seem to loose my razor every year as soon as it starts to get cold!!!
Amazingly, I seem to locate it again as soon as it starts to warm up
I seem to loose my razor every year as soon as it starts to get cold!!!
Amazingly, I seem to locate it again as soon as it starts to warm up
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Employment
Mike
If you need assistance when it gets cold, I have this old knife in the bottom of my bag somewhere. I can come up there and give you a quick shave...
Pierre
Mike
If you need assistance when it gets cold, I have this old knife in the bottom of my bag somewhere. I can come up there and give you a quick shave...
Pierre
physis
Senior Member
Re: Employment
I figured Bob for the Mike Holt look. Sorry Bob.
I hire a guy to help out sometimes and he's ugly, fat, dirty and has long hair. I wish he'd bathe more and looked better and there's places I can't take him but he's a pretty good guy.
What bothers me isn't all that but that he's a little slow and wrecks my tools sometimes.
I figured Bob for the Mike Holt look. Sorry Bob.
I hire a guy to help out sometimes and he's ugly, fat, dirty and has long hair. I wish he'd bathe more and looked better and there's places I can't take him but he's a pretty good guy.
What bothers me isn't all that but that he's a little slow and wrecks my tools sometimes.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Employment
Ok, how about this- I have a guy who has worked with me for better than 25 years. He is a good worker, knows the business, shows up pretty much on time and we get along well.
Problem is he looks a lot different than he did 25 years ago. Due to health problems he has gained a lot of weight and now sweats all over the place. I "donated" suspenders to keep his pants up but nothing is going to make this guy GQ material.
This isn't good for the company image I know but what can I do? He is a good guy and I couldn't let him go after all this time. I can't afford to hire somebody else and keep him in the background.
-Hal
Ok, how about this- I have a guy who has worked with me for better than 25 years. He is a good worker, knows the business, shows up pretty much on time and we get along well.
Problem is he looks a lot different than he did 25 years ago. Due to health problems he has gained a lot of weight and now sweats all over the place. I "donated" suspenders to keep his pants up
but nothing is going to make this guy GQ material.This isn't good for the company image I know but what can I do? He is a good guy and I couldn't let him go after all this time. I can't afford to hire somebody else and keep him in the background.
-Hal
- Status