Don't agree with engineers service calculations!

[steve66]

I tell you I NEED the engineer to approve your changes.

Although I can easily see that for something as major as a service size cut in half, I'm not sure you can require an engineers approval for something that clearly meets code. (This is probably a good topic for another thread, because I think there might be a lot of differning opinions over this.)

For example, if the specs called for compression EMT couplings, and the contractor used set screw couplings, I don't think its the inspectors job to question something like that.

Steve

 

[petersonra]

I tell you I NEED the engineer to approve your changes.

Although I can easily see that for something as major as a service size cut in half, I'm not sure you can require an engineers approval for something that clearly meets code. (This is probably a good topic for another thread, because I think there might be a lot of differning opinions over this.)

For example, if the specs called for compression EMT couplings, and the contractor used set screw couplings, I don't think its the inspectors job to question something like that.

Steve

I am inclined to agree. OTOH, I would not expect a specification type item like the type of EMT to be used to be on a sealed drawing. Its just not the right place for it because you may need to modify those kind of things as you go along, and it is much easier to modify a spec than changing a drawing the AHJ has accepted. This kind of thing is a commercial issue and not a technical one.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Actually Steve yes we can.

Stamped plans become a legal document and belong to the EE who drew them. You cannot make any changes to the plans with out the approval of the EE. You are right that it would be code to use set screw type connectors instead of compression type. We are required to keep these plans or a copy of them (digital) for the life of the building.

What this tells me though is that you did not read the plans when you bid the job and you bid to what you thought you could do and not what the customer or EE wanted. This is why we don't allow you to start work without a permit because that also means that you haven't got a set of approved plans and you simply install whatever it is that will meet code.

Calif State License Law: 7109(b) A willful departrure from or disregard of plans or specifications in any material respect, which is prejudicial to another, without the consent of the owner or his or her duly authorized representative and without the consent of the person entitled to have their particular construction project or operation completed in accordance with such plans or specifications, constitutes a cause for disciplinary action.

 

[haskindm]

rl,
If you want to question the engineers design stop guessing, stop comparing it to other similar buildings, stop coming up with a "20VA" per square foot figure and sit down with Article 220 and do a complete calculation on the building. You will need to get information such as actual lighting load versus minimum lighting load, and all of the other equipment that will be installed. You will then come up with a minimum service size that will meet the requirements of the NEC. You may then approach the designer/engineer intelligently and say; "I calculate the minimum service for this building to be _____ according to the NEC. You have specified the service to be _________. I understand that we should allow for some future expansion, but that seems to be excessive. Is there something planned for this building that I should know about so that I can install adequate wiring?"
This remove opinions and speculation from the equation. Do your homework. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS!

 

[steve66]

Calif State License Law: 7109(b) A willful departrure from or disregard of plans or specifications in any material respect, which is prejudicial to another, without the consent of the owner or his or her duly authorized representative and without the consent of the person entitled to have their particular construction project or operation completed in accordance with such plans or specifications, constitutes a cause for disciplinary action.

I can't really comment on that without seeing it in context. Just because it is a law doesn't mean it is the inspectors job to police it. It may be more of the owner didn't get what he paid for type thing than a public safety thing.

For example, California has a speed limit law, but that doesn't mean a building inspector can give me a ticket.

Steve

 

[cowboyjwc]

Steve,

A friend of mine once told a IRS agent that you can't get blood from a turnip. The IRS agent replied no, but I can take your turnip. I might not be able to give you a ticket, but I know the guy that can.

Since it is our job to be the keeper of the plans so to speak, then it is our job to make sure that the plans are followed as well as the specs. It does me no good to keep a permenant record if it doesn't match what was installed or speced.

Sorry the title of the section I quoted is "Departure from accepted trade standards; Depature from plans or specifications."

 

[tincan44]

My post wasn't intended to get off the topic rlwiley posted. It was more of a warning of what could happen if the disagreement with the Engineer wasn't resolved and the job was not built according to plan. I wrote it so all would know what an Inspector is thinking.
I know little if anything about the Owner, the job, the Engineer or the the Electrician. I don't know the Owner's future dreams.
I know an Engineer put his License and reputation on the line when he designed that system. He has done all the research and calculations. The vast majority of the time he is correct. The Plans have been Reviewed and Approved by the Owner and then the Building Dept. I know a Stamped set of plans are given to the Electrician and he is hired to build it as specified in a Code Compliant manner.
If the notes call for compression fittings and you decide on SS. If the notes call for EMT and you decide on MC. Here's interesting one I've seen, "for every 75 feet of wire run the conductors must be increased one size" and you decide otherwise then get 3 letters with the raised seal from the Engineer authorizing your changes. If the Riser Diagram is changed then get 3 new drawings of it with his seal too.
My job is to see that the PLANS ARE FOLLOWED and all work meets the MINIMUM Standards of the applicable Codes.
The fact is, I HAVE NO CHOICE. Nothing Personal.

 

[DGrant041]

I asked this question to the forum to get professional opinions. I am not an engineer and do not claim to be one. I simply wanted to make sure that my opinion was in line with what should be an appropriate service size b/f I go into a meeting with the owner and engineer. I had stated b/f that I was not trying to bash the engineer. My only intention for this questions is to some gain some knowledge from professionals b/f I go into a meeting to get the project within budget.

rlwiley-

I wouldn't even have posted except it seems you're getting slammed by a lot of people without getting your question answered. Unfortunately, this is not my field of expertise either.

BUT in my field I have to confront engineers in regards to their designs often. And I go about just as you have done. I dig-up the original write-up and see what has been sold. I find out if there were any specifications sent by the customer that would supersede the write-up or add clarification. Of coarse, there are always those E-MAILs that the engineer has but I won't have access to until I go talk to him about.

I'm sorry you didn't get the answers you were looking for. You mentioned in your original post that the HVAC consisted of 8 units, straight heat, 40.2 Amps. It sounds like something is missing. . .but you've probably heard that a few times before. :roll:

Best of luck and tell your engineering buddy we said, Hi. :wink:

 

[rlwiley]

The 8 units are not heat pumps. When I said 40.2 amps I meant that each unit has a FLC of 40.2 amps. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[lady sparks lover]

Here's my problem these types of disputes in the field. If you question the design, at least make an effort to either have a teleconference or a meeting with the engineer. There might be reasonings you both have decided why you see things a different way.

In my own experience, I'm found that yes the contractor could do it cheaper, but he/she wasn't thinking about future expansion. On the flip side, the contractor may want to add things to cover him/herself on their end that I had not considered. Or sometimes they've seen mistakes I've made.

So before things are changed, at lease discuss with the other party why they did what they did. Communication will save lives, money, and time! :wink:


Lady

 

[rlwiley]

LISTEN!!! I ONLY WANTED SOME OPINIONS ABOUT THE RIDICULOUS SERVICE SIZE FOR A BUILDING THAT CAN NOT BE EXPANDED!! LIKE CHARLIE SAID IN HIS REPLY 20 VA PER FOOT IS MORE REASONABLE THAN 57.6 VA PER FOOT. I DID NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MEETING THE ENGINEER AND OWNER W/O VERIFYING MY OPINION WITH OTHER PROFESSIONALS OPINIONS. YES, I AM GOING TO HAVE A MEETING WITH THE OWNER AND ENGINEER. YES, WE WILL DISCUSS THE RIDICULOUS SERVICE SIZE. THIS IS A BUILDING THAT WILL HOUSE THE OWNERS BUSINESS. THERE IS NO PLAN BY THE OWNER TO BRING IN MRI/X-RAY EQUIPMENT, ETC. I WILL SAY THIS AGAIN I WAS ONLY TRYING TO GET PROFESSIONAL OPINIONS ON THE ACTUAL SERVICE SIZE. I WAS NOT TRYING TO GET A SEMINAR STYLE LECTURE ON PROPER BUSINESS ETHICS. I BELIEVE THAT I HAVE NOT STEPPED OVER ANY "ETHICS BOUNDARIES" BY ASKING FOR OTHERS OPINIONS. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY OF COMMENTS LISTED IN THIS FORUM WOULD DEFINE ME AS BEING "SPINELESS". THIS WAS A SIMPLE QUESTION THAT I THOUGHT WOULD HAVE A SIMPLE ANSWER. MY APOLOGIZES ANYTHING THAT I HAVE SAID THAT OFFENDS ANYONE ON THIS BOARD.
THANKS

 

[petersonra]

It almost sounds to me like you have a beef with the engineer and are going to try to ambush him at the meeting.

You and the engineer ought to get on the same page before the meeting.

Or maybe you are just trying to reduce the costs to the owner in the hopes he will give you the business for showing him a place where big savings can be had.

I don't like the term "value engineering" used in a previous post. Every time I have ever heard it, it is from someone who has come up with something workable, legal, and perfectly safe that has about ten things wrong with it that are not easily explained to people who do not understand the issues involved.

By the way, all caps is considered very rude and akin to shouting.

 

[Lady Engineer]

Why are you so upset, it was a mere suggestion. Plus, it's better to handle things will class, then to get defensive and do something irrational. Engineers are taught to think outside the box. I don't have anything against the guy who works in the field, because a lot of times, he/she gets a better first hand view, but that's the beauty of this field. Both portions of this field should compliment each other. That's professionalism.

Anyway, that's how I would handle it if I were you.

By the way all, this is Lady Sparks, I was locked out of my account, but not one has answered me about the problem, so I had to resign! :evil:

Lady

 

[petersonra]

By the way all, this is Lady Sparks, I was locked out of my account, but not one has answered me about the problem, so I had to resign! :evil:

Lady

What did you do? I did not know they locked anyone out of their accounts. Maybe something to do with the new forum software. Or maybe you forgot your secret code.

 

[Lady Engineer]

I don't know what happened. It comes up inactive, even though I put in the right password. Strange! :?


Lady

 

[haskindm]

Rlwiley,
You are correct, you are not an engineer, but you ARE an Electrician. As such, it should be a simple thing for you to sit down and do an Article 220 load calculation on this building. Only then will you be able to determine the correct MINIMUM service size. Once you establish the minimum, then you can inteligently discuss what should be allowed for future use. You seem to want to avoid doing the calculation. There is nothing in the code about a VA per square foot value that should be adhered to except in the optional calculations for schools. There are too many variables for a VA per square foot number to have any meeting. It is like trying to price per square foot, can you apply the same price per square foot for a cathdral that you would use for a warehouse? How is the building heated and/or cooled? How many sign circuits will be installed? Are there "show windows?". Is the lighting installed to the minimum VA reguired in article 220 or has this been exceeded? Will there be motor loads? Stop looking for shortcuts or for someone else to give you the answer. Do the calculation, if you cannot perform the calculation find someone in your company that can. Anyone with a Master Electrician License will have had to perform a calculation in order to qualify for the license in most jurisdictions. If there is no person in your company that can perform an article 220 calculation then you will have no choice but to accept the engineer's recomendation. Trying to figure this any other way does not make sense. If you think the people on this forum have been rough on you, wait until you tell the engineer that you think his service is incorrect without having anything to back it up other than a VA per square foot figure and your hunch that it is too much!