Do you always get a permit for all the work you are doing?? I know that everybody gets them for new constructions, and etc. But I'm talking about adding a couple of new outlets, maybe a feeder, but nothing really big or maybe, but you could get away without a permit? How often do you or the company that your work for get them?? I have work with several companies that only got them when they had to have them. Just wondering??
Do you always get a permit??
- Thread starter nicknorth
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jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Do you always get a permit??
I get them when required by law, which is almost always. An inspector recently told me that the only time I can skip it is if I'm doing a repair.
It's just not worth the risk to skip getting the permit. It's illegal, and if something went wrong on a job that was done by a licensed contractor who didn't pull a permit (fire, injury, death), I'd bet the authorities would come down on the EC like a ton of bricks. The EC would have no leg to stand on, as he of all people would know that a permit was required. Pulling the permit is a good way to cover yourself.
I see it as part of my job to educate homeowners about the permit/inspection process and why we have to go through it. Occasionally I get homeowners who want to pinch pennies and ask if we can skip the permit and the associated fee, but I always refuse.
I get them when required by law, which is almost always. An inspector recently told me that the only time I can skip it is if I'm doing a repair.
It's just not worth the risk to skip getting the permit. It's illegal, and if something went wrong on a job that was done by a licensed contractor who didn't pull a permit (fire, injury, death), I'd bet the authorities would come down on the EC like a ton of bricks. The EC would have no leg to stand on, as he of all people would know that a permit was required. Pulling the permit is a good way to cover yourself.
I see it as part of my job to educate homeowners about the permit/inspection process and why we have to go through it. Occasionally I get homeowners who want to pinch pennies and ask if we can skip the permit and the associated fee, but I always refuse.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Do you always get a permit??
Should you YES.Many will not for small jobs.Pulling one is costly in time and fees.You will lose many small jobs if you do because your price will be higher.I worked for an EC that other than new construction only pulled permits on about half of the remodels or service upgrades.Thankfully i am no longer with him.Too much is at risk here.Not sure if your insurance company would pay if you have a problem.
Should you YES.Many will not for small jobs.Pulling one is costly in time and fees.You will lose many small jobs if you do because your price will be higher.I worked for an EC that other than new construction only pulled permits on about half of the remodels or service upgrades.Thankfully i am no longer with him.Too much is at risk here.Not sure if your insurance company would pay if you have a problem.
kentirwin
Senior Member
- Location
- Norfolk, VA
Re: Do you always get a permit??
I have spent quite a bit of time over the years in commercial and industrial electrical work. It's a sad fact that the vast majority of other than new construction or large renovation work, most electrical installations in my area go un-permitted. These are things like adding circuits for machinery, installing new receptacles, lights right up to adding new CB panels, etc. If you're not driving the bus there's not a whole lot you can do about it. It's not as simple as "find another EC to work for" when they all do business the same way.
I have spent quite a bit of time over the years in commercial and industrial electrical work. It's a sad fact that the vast majority of other than new construction or large renovation work, most electrical installations in my area go un-permitted. These are things like adding circuits for machinery, installing new receptacles, lights right up to adding new CB panels, etc. If you're not driving the bus there's not a whole lot you can do about it. It's not as simple as "find another EC to work for" when they all do business the same way.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Do you always get a permit??
Many areas seem to feel any electrical work (sometimes including repairs) needs a permit. To me this is stupid, and counterproductive for small jobs. It just drives people underground, and encourages poor quality work when the cost of the permit and inspection is a substantial part of the project cost.
But as we all know, the primary reason for this practice is not safety but revenue. Not just the permit/inspection costs, but when remodeling is done, property taxes are often raised. So over time it adds up to big chuncks.
An answeer to this could be found in allowing ECs to take on smaller, well defined projects without requiring a permit or inspection.
Many areas seem to feel any electrical work (sometimes including repairs) needs a permit. To me this is stupid, and counterproductive for small jobs. It just drives people underground, and encourages poor quality work when the cost of the permit and inspection is a substantial part of the project cost.
But as we all know, the primary reason for this practice is not safety but revenue. Not just the permit/inspection costs, but when remodeling is done, property taxes are often raised. So over time it adds up to big chuncks.
An answeer to this could be found in allowing ECs to take on smaller, well defined projects without requiring a permit or inspection.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: Do you always get a permit??
In our area several jurisdictions require load surveys and drawing for a simple outlet installation, I know for a fact these requirements have forced many contractors to NOT pull permits. The cost for an outlet runs in the
thousands with out the labor and material.
If your competitor does not get a permit you'll never get any work, if you try to compete and include a permit cost.
5 hours at permit office 5Hr.s X $85.00 = 425.00
30 load survey $980.00-$1680.00
Permit $65.00
Drawings another $600.00-$900.00
I feel this is counter productive for contractors as well as the local government, as they lose revenue.
I believe a simple process should be established to avoid this problems, but I doubt this will ever happen.
In our area several jurisdictions require load surveys and drawing for a simple outlet installation, I know for a fact these requirements have forced many contractors to NOT pull permits. The cost for an outlet runs in the
thousands with out the labor and material.
If your competitor does not get a permit you'll never get any work, if you try to compete and include a permit cost.
5 hours at permit office 5Hr.s X $85.00 = 425.00
30 load survey $980.00-$1680.00
Permit $65.00
Drawings another $600.00-$900.00
I feel this is counter productive for contractors as well as the local government, as they lose revenue.
I believe a simple process should be established to avoid this problems, but I doubt this will ever happen.
Re: Do you always get a permit??
In NJ, persons working w/o the neccessary permits are fined (when caught).
Here is some PUBLIC information that illustrates the , sometimes, severe penalties:
State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors
Minutes Page
The penalties range from about $1000.00 to over $31,000.00. The more persons that get fined, the less will assume they can do whatever they like - which creates a hazard for not only the property owner, but also the EC that must eventually straighten the mess out, and the EMS crews and fire personnal who must respond to 911 calls.
In NJ, in conjunction with the NEC, we have the Rehab Code. The Rehab Code is NOT a substitute for pulling a permit or following established guidelines in the NEC. It is a code that allows(basically) for replacement of like items - meaning the entire property may not actually need to be brought up to current code in certain applications.
Not obtaining a neccessary permit could also result in the property owners ins. co. NOT paying out on a claim. Imagine the outlets/feeders you install fail and a fire starts...the ins. co. determines the cause of fire to be faulty wiring...they investigate who did the work to find NO PERMITS were pulled...claim denied. The property owner in turn sues your company for the damage you caused. Your ins. co. may deny you representation because you did not have the job inspected as required through the permit process. The property owner now sues you personally. Is the $45 permit fee really that much of a burden?
I live in a (almost)major city in NJ. For me to get a permit takes about 20 minutes. Larger cities, such as Jersey City (one of the largest in NJ) may take 45 minutes. I see NO substanial issue to encourage me to NOT get the permits when neccessary or as required.
Granted, not all cities within a given State have the same requirements for what determines what requires a permit and what doesn't. When in doubt, err on the side of caution, and call that particular town/city's building dept. In my own city, I can replace a 15/20A recept. w/o a permit...BUT...if that replacement outlet is a GFCI, a permit is required.
Let me remind you:
90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
Not obtaining a permit, when required, violates the purpose of the NEC....which is enforced by the EI. Calling yourself an EC, implies that you understand and will adhere to the provisions in the NEC and the req's of the State/county/town you work in. You charge a premium for your knowledge - are you willing to forego your reputation (and livelyhood) to save a few dollars?
NOTE: I stress that this IS public information, as the contents of this post may have been previously deleted.
In NJ, persons working w/o the neccessary permits are fined (when caught).
Here is some PUBLIC information that illustrates the , sometimes, severe penalties:
State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors
Minutes Page
The penalties range from about $1000.00 to over $31,000.00. The more persons that get fined, the less will assume they can do whatever they like - which creates a hazard for not only the property owner, but also the EC that must eventually straighten the mess out, and the EMS crews and fire personnal who must respond to 911 calls.
In NJ, in conjunction with the NEC, we have the Rehab Code. The Rehab Code is NOT a substitute for pulling a permit or following established guidelines in the NEC. It is a code that allows(basically) for replacement of like items - meaning the entire property may not actually need to be brought up to current code in certain applications.
Not obtaining a neccessary permit could also result in the property owners ins. co. NOT paying out on a claim. Imagine the outlets/feeders you install fail and a fire starts...the ins. co. determines the cause of fire to be faulty wiring...they investigate who did the work to find NO PERMITS were pulled...claim denied. The property owner in turn sues your company for the damage you caused. Your ins. co. may deny you representation because you did not have the job inspected as required through the permit process. The property owner now sues you personally. Is the $45 permit fee really that much of a burden?
I live in a (almost)major city in NJ. For me to get a permit takes about 20 minutes. Larger cities, such as Jersey City (one of the largest in NJ) may take 45 minutes. I see NO substanial issue to encourage me to NOT get the permits when neccessary or as required.
Granted, not all cities within a given State have the same requirements for what determines what requires a permit and what doesn't. When in doubt, err on the side of caution, and call that particular town/city's building dept. In my own city, I can replace a 15/20A recept. w/o a permit...BUT...if that replacement outlet is a GFCI, a permit is required.
Let me remind you:
90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
Not obtaining a permit, when required, violates the purpose of the NEC....which is enforced by the EI. Calling yourself an EC, implies that you understand and will adhere to the provisions in the NEC and the req's of the State/county/town you work in. You charge a premium for your knowledge - are you willing to forego your reputation (and livelyhood) to save a few dollars?
NOTE: I stress that this IS public information, as the contents of this post may have been previously deleted.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: Do you always get a permit??
The fine here as well, but they have to catch offending contractors. I called aboout an unlicensed contractor doing a job we bid. I was told to take piactures, get a signed letter from the customer and file a formal complaint. My answer was Then I do not need a license to operate in your county.
The fine here as well, but they have to catch offending contractors. I called aboout an unlicensed contractor doing a job we bid. I was told to take piactures, get a signed letter from the customer and file a formal complaint. My answer was Then I do not need a license to operate in your county.
Re: Do you always get a permit??
I thought with Commercial and Industrial work (especially industrial maninteance stuff) just like one permit was pulled, and it covered any work done in a period of a year or whatever. I mean, what if there's *always* something going on in like a plant or something, are those guys expected to pull a gazzillion permits?
I thought with Commercial and Industrial work (especially industrial maninteance stuff) just like one permit was pulled, and it covered any work done in a period of a year or whatever. I mean, what if there's *always* something going on in like a plant or something, are those guys expected to pull a gazzillion permits?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Do you always get a permit??
I think I recall iwire mentioning that as an option in Mass., Midget.
So, with summer coming up, you going to hire on, work some residential? Or you decide on commericial?
I think I recall iwire mentioning that as an option in Mass., Midget.
So, with summer coming up, you going to hire on, work some residential? Or you decide on commericial?
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: Do you always get a permit??
Here in my area, and I'm sure may other areas, the price of a permit for a service change over is based on the size of service. Now I repeat, this is a service change over, not new construction. If I put in a 200 amp service the permit is twice the price of a 100 amp service and the inspector is inspecting the same amount of work. This just goes to show that the inspection process is more of a revenue issue then a safety issue!
Here in my area, and I'm sure may other areas, the price of a permit for a service change over is based on the size of service. Now I repeat, this is a service change over, not new construction. If I put in a 200 amp service the permit is twice the price of a 100 amp service and the inspector is inspecting the same amount of work. This just goes to show that the inspection process is more of a revenue issue then a safety issue!
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