dining room

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macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Re: dining room

Don with all due respect I guess we just have to disagree on this because I think you are adding words into the code book that are not there. I have never seen any such mention that the 2 small appliance circuits would apply only to kitchen counter outlets. To the contrary the code specifically spells out that if counter spaces are also in the dining room they too must also follow outlet spacing rules as per kitchen counter spaces and be on two circuits. What say yee Ryan J ?
 
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paul32

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Re: dining room

Originally posted by macmikeman:
For Paul: I never said you have to run 2 20 a circuits to each room but that it does say the dining room needs to be fed from the 2 sa circuits or if you like you can run optional extra 20 a circuits, but it does specify 2 circuits. Read it again fella's.
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I just read this again. When I first read it and replied I thought this quote mean read your post again and that you did not say 2 circuits were needed in the dining room, which is why I quoted your prior post. But now I see you do think 2 circuits are needed in the dining room. Everyone else says no (excluding the case of a counter in the dining room). Tell us which section says 2 circuits need to be in the dining room.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: dining room

Mac,
How does anything in the following words require more than one circuit in any given area?
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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This is in contrast to the words that specifically requires two circuits to serve the kitchen countertop area.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
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Don

[ June 16, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
 
ryan_618

ryan_618

Senior Member
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: dining room

My opinion:

You need at least two 20 amp circuits for the kitchen, breakfast, dining, pantry, etc. You could add another circuit if you would like, to pick up the dining room, as long as it is 20 amps, and you could call it a small appliance circuit. That would give you three SA circuits. You could hit one receptacle on the countertop with a 20 amp circuit and end it there. You could then take the other 20 amp circuit and hit the rest of the countertops as well as the kitchen, dining, pantry, etc.

As long as you have both circuits (20 amp) touch the countertop receptacles you are OK. If you would like to use these circuits to hit the dining, pantry and everything else, that is fine. If you want two circuits for the countertop only, that is fine also, but you would have to have another 20A circuit for the dining, pantry, etc. If you decide to use 3 SA circuits, you must include these in your service/feeder calcs at 1500VA each.
:)
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: dining room

Mac
If this article was interpret to mean that the dinning has to have two circuits then it would also mean the refrigerator would also need two circuits.

and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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Of course if you had both a refrigerator and a freezer you would be required to have them on more than one circuit because of the 50% rule In 210.23(A)(2) But then that another thread.

But you still have to have two circuits in the dinning room.
One for the receptacles and one for the lighting. ;) :p
 
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megawire

Member
Re: dining room

Originally posted by hurk27:
I wonder how many relize that since most refrigerators are over 50% of the circuit rating they should be on there own circuit? Is this not what 210.23(A)(2) say's? What say you?
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Hurk,

Your right, I always did this under our old city code regardless of current rating, mainly my rule of thumb was anything with a compressor got dedication (this way if the compressor ever locked up, it would lock up by its little self). Also, a 15A is permissible as a dedicated refrigerator circuit. However, in NY #12 is the min. for circuits.
 
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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: dining room

I wouldn't consider refrigerator a fastened in place appliance and would think the 80% requirement would qualify per 210.23(A)(1). :)
 
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megawire

Member
Re: dining room

Bryan,

You have a point, however, it is unlikely that one would move the refrigerator to a different receptacle within the kichen. thus, the refrigerator lacks the portability that you are quoting. A plug in style microwave would therefore be applicable to the 80% rule. However, an under cabinet plug in style microwave would be based on the 50% rule. In my opinion, the refrigerator is better off by itself, after all its the only appliance that has no switched control.
 
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tracker

Member
Location
Vermont
Re: dining room

When we wire a kitchen each counter top and island recepetacle and ref and wave and dining romm are on thier own 20amp breaker.We nevere use 15amp.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: dining room

Originally posted by megawire:
In my opinion, the refrigerator is better off by itself,
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Megawire I believe Byran was talking about what the code requires, not what is better.

Regardless of how portable a refrigerator is, it is not (most times) a fastened in place appliance.

Besides that, refrigerators have come along way in efficiency, the one in my kitchen is rated 4.75 amps @ 120 volts, of course it is no restaurant sized sub zero unit. :p
 
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srvrrmguy

Member
Re: dining room

Is the 50 & 80% rule based on 2400 va? I usually wire a kitchen with 2 sa 20amp,1 15 for fridge,1 20amp for dw & gd combo and a 15 for micro. the dr and breakfast area depend on convience and how large the house is as to share w sa or not.
 
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srvrrmguy

Member
Re: dining room

If it is based on 2400va then no as most dw pull 7 to 9 amps and most garbage disposers are about the same. Eric
 
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srvrrmguy

Member
Re: dining room

oh yeah I've neaver had a reported tripping. Altough depending on materials and panel space I have used 2 15amp circuits also. Eric
 
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