Dabbling into other parts of the market

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aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Since working on my own, I have done only residential with very very little commercial (adding circuits, yada yada yada). Now I want to start doing work like, Resturants, small groceries, UPS stores, things like this. The only problem is, I do not have hands on experience doing these things. Only the book knowledge. How can I get myself to the point where I am ready enough to not make myself look like a fool. I am ok with failing an occasional inspection , if i can learn alot from it. The biggest problem is learning the procedures enough while still working for myself. Are there any good books or websites anyone knows of that can help me? Are there books with offer tricks of the trade? I guess one thing I could do is hire someone who knows what they are doing and i'll act as a helper. I want to do this only as a last resort for I would seem incompetent to my help. I just want to learn as painful as possible the ins and outs of commercial work. Thanks for any positive help.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Nothing wrong in hiring a commercial journeyman.Let him know upfront that your mostly residential and his job opening is because of his knowledge in that area.As long as the end result is your making money.
Do be carefull on bids,commercial often takes a lot more time and material can be very high

[ March 19, 2005, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 

coppertreeelectric

Senior Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Like you said you may want to hire someone who knows the commercial / industrial side of the biz. Keep in mind that someone in the commercial field may cost you a bit more than a worker who knows only residential. There is a lot to learn about commercial work the number one skill that you will not learn in a book is bending pipe. If you?re going to do commercial pipe bending is a must. Second, there are many more codes to learn. Third, make sure you have enough insurance, your no longer dealing with home owners. Commercial work is good to know; most of my work is commercial and industrial and can prove to be much more profitable in the long run. You may find yourself in the near future never wanting to drill a hole in wood again. Don?t be scared off about the pipe bending, you can learn the basics pretty quick but you should ask somebody to show you some tricks.

Best of luck with it, Steve

PS: You will make good friends with Mr.THHN
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

I will make clear I do not own my own company.

That said I do spend my time doing commercial work.

I too suggest getting someone who has done it before.

The details in the prints and specifications can kill you if you do not pay attention.

You need to be sure who is responsible for things like;

1)Excavation

2)Trash

3)Cutting, Coring, Patching.

4)Temporary power and how much

5)Storage areas

For customers that are part of a chain or franchise you may find they specify each and every item, from the smallest fittings to what type of panel boards and switchgear you may use.

For these customers do not waste your time trying to substitute other material just give what they specify and make sure you bid on that specific product.


Good luck, Bob

Edit;

One more thing keep a log of daily events and leave a paper trail for all changes.

GCs can be tough, the paper trail is your protection.

[ March 19, 2005, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Good advice so far so I don't have much to add. I am pretty much all residential now but I did work for a commercial contractor for a while. Wiring a house VS a restaurant is apples to oranges. Just jumping in head first would be a bad idea. You could easily look like a fool or put yourself right out of business. Getting experienced help would be a good move.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

In th early 1990's I went the other way around and took a little beating up at first. I used to contract commercial electrical only. Then I bid a few of those millionaire palaces. I had wired alot of houses before going out on my own, but It was a long time ago. Thats when I got my first taste of fancy residential lighting like low voltage pucks or rope lights under cabinets, cable lights, etc. Commercial work is more tricky on the avarage, but the resi work can be also until you learn the ropes.
 

tshea

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Find out what your competitors are billing for commercial work. You'll kill yourself billing at $50/hr when everyone is billing at $75/hr. You will look like you don't know what you are doing.

I agree, hire a good commercial electrician. Be upfront with him/her.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

One other thing.

Make sure you have a written agreement on the payment terms. Know how to file a lein, commercial work often pays a lot slower than residential.
 

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

When bidding commercial work should I bid on a time and material basis or do i need to figure an estimated time and material bid and give the GC a proposal based off of that. Are there ways to bid in such a fashion where I will not lose out (asuming we do nothing to cause the job to take longer.) What I mean is, are there ways to pitch a bid in commercial work and still keep it open to changes in price, ie...Estimates as opposed to bidding cut and dry.
 

coppertreeelectric

Senior Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

When bidding commercial work should I bid on a time and material basis
It really depends on the customer. If they need a price up front which most commercial customers need because PO?s need to be approved you will need to provide a number before you start. You need to do some hands on research to see what is involved in the project e.g. Open ceiling tiles, locate the panels and see what?s involved in the project. If you can work T&M take it as an opportunity to learn what?s involved. Ask the customer if they would mind T&M because you?re not sure what obstacles you may come across. But again, do some recon work before you bid.

Good luck, Steve
 

tshea

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

You can have a line that something to the effect: Any work requested above and beyond what is listed or shown on the drawing will be billed on a time and material basis.

It works for us.
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

We are more residential be we do smaller comercial. It can be difficult crosing over. Piping is not a problem because that's all we do. He's the problems we have had:

1. If your workers are not used to metal studs and steel beams it is a learning process to be proficent. It's not rocket science but you can't exepct you guys to know what parts to get for where. With out help they will use wood bracket boxes and no pipe straps. Or want to use 2x4's instead of steal strut.

2. There seem to be a lot of comercial people out of work and many of them are probibly very qualified. Do you have the type of work to keep them busy? Many of them don't want residential work. Some have no experiance cutting in things in a house. Others are not used to being clean & carefull in a house. But resi work is still a big part of your company.

3. To hire a comercial JW or forman can be the top of the pay scale.

4. You may need to find different suppliers. At least 1 supply house I can't price out a panel board for their life. Other places you need to find the right person. Some places stock little comercial stuff. You may want to find one that sells square D Panels because they are speced out a lot.

5. Sooner more then later you will need equipment for bending & pulling. Some places may rent. I wish I knew one in IL.

6. Some comercial prints are written to give you the short end of the stick. Like "Note #708 EC shall be responcable to make everything with no change orders regaurdless." You can spend a lot of time looking up all the notes and reading details on how everthing must be done exactly.

7. If you have not done the work before you will not know what to look out for. Like kitchens are you providing the equipment cords & caps? Or do you know what is required when it comes to hoods.

8. We have have been very carefull knowing local requirements. One time there was a different EC building out the unit next to ours. They did non know until the final that all wires had to be min. #12. They were resi guys that did a subway in 14's.

9. Many places are done with GC's from out of state that you don't know.

10. Many projects are just to big for a small co. to get done on time.

Keep in mind also if you hire a person to do your comercial work you may be at treir mercy. If you don't know their work they may make some costly mistakes. Like pipes stubed out of the floor in the wrong place. Forgetting to do something like run a pipe for something. Undersize or not run enough pipes.


Tom
 

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Tom, that was very helpful and hence might scare me away for now. Thanks for the helpful insight.
 

highkvoltage

Senior Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Tread lightly my friend. There are classes out there to learn how to bid these projects. Even if you hirer some one you heard has commercial experience you have really have nothing but what you have read to know if what they are telling you is right or wrong. You will gambling your future depending on how big of project you jump into that you have picked the right person to help you out. If I were you find another smaller contractor that would be willing to go into a project with you. In other words they would have a vested interest as you would in making money. It is also cleaner in the fact that whether you are working for him/her or they are working for you 1099 at the end of the year and that's it. Find a mentor an older contractor that has retired and would be willing to so you the ropes of commercial work for a set fee. Alot of these guys are willing to help because it gets them in the game again. There are many options I hope you choose wisely and become more successful.

[ March 20, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: highkvoltage ]
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

I don't mean to scare you away. Just try to start small. We get a lot of leads we need to pass up. Just have to find the right one. Small store build outs are a place to start. We turn down bids over 5,000 sf. Sometimes we have returned a print to say sorry we can't do this for you. You feel a bad for this but I would rather not bid out or do a job that we might be too low or mess up or take too long. Myself I wish I had more large scale exp.

Maybe you can find a resi guy with a limited amount of commercial work. But be careful. Some workers will say they can do everything. Later you may find out they had 0 exp doing somthing and messed it up. Some workers are not afraid of making mistakes. That's when it can be scary.

Tom
 

studiac

Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

ah, don't let them scare you, it's a peice of cake. Like they said just pay close attention to EVERYTHING your responsible for before you bid. The only way to bid a first is to put a number to everything. I agree on getting someone who knows this side of the trade. Make sure you have a "change order clause" and get them signed before you do any work outside the scope of what you bid on. I would also make sure you know where you can get some help if needed (if you hire someone he might know) in case you get down to crunch time and need the extra help. Plus I would count on overtime being paid, so figure that into your bid. You might also want to see what tools you will need, if you are required to run rigid pipe a triple nickle and a threader will set you back 8 to 10 grand, unless you can rent one from somewhere. But most commercial wont require those tools.
 

shocker3218

Senior Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Just another small word of caution. I started a small bay in a mall. 8500 square ft. to be refinished. Original schedule was for 10 weeks. Demo too 2 weeks (1 week longer than planned) framing took 3 weeks (another week longer than planned) and now the schedule has been shortened to 8 weeks.

2 week shorten schedule + 1 week lost to demo + 1 week lost to framers = electricians have a lot of time to gain.

Luckily the general agreed to cover overtime cost in order for us to meet his schedule.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

I have a friend, a fellow EC who is basically a one man shop. He does have a helper but his ability is pretty much limited to handing his boss his tools and other grunt work. Keep in mind that this guy doesn't even own a computer and generates invoices and everything else by hand- his contracts are a NEBS form.

This guy does residential and light commercial and had been doing maintenance for a commercial property owner for some time. Since he had his foot in the door the property owner asked him to be the EC for the buildout of about 15,000 feet of space to be rented to the state for a DMV office. 600A 3ph service, feeders to the rooftop A/C, all LV in conduit, >200 troffers, offices, restrooms, DMV type counters, etc. etc.

When he mentioned this to me I asked how he intended to accomplish this by himself and his helper. No problem he said, the two of them can knock it out.

I don't know what the timetable is but regardless I would never consider a job like that if that were me as a responsible contractor. I think he is biting off more than he can chew because he doesn't want to turn down a job.

-Hal
 

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Alot of you have alot of great advice. I will use this wisely and plan to still dabble into the market. I have a small grocery store to start with. This is almost like residential. This will help me with the pipe bending and getting use to the commercial aspects. Next I will take on something alittle more involved. I have a UPS store I will be bidding on next month. They have already giving me a copy of the spec equipment to be used and a time table along with a 40 page packet of cr*p to review. If I can get it, I will take it. Its small, easy and not too involved. Eventually, I would like to do resturants. These seem more involved because there is alot in such little space. Alot of people don't like resturants, but I have a buddy that can get me some O'Charleys resturants, but he wants me to make sure I know my S**t. Can't blame him.
 

tx2step

Senior Member
Re: Dabbling into other parts of the market

Getting into commercial work can be a big step, depending on what kind of work that you do and how large it is. It can become a giant game of "chess" where actually doing the electrical work is only a small part of the time and effort that you eventually devote to a particular project.

The business aspect of it is at least as important as being able to perform the actual electrical work. I've seen many good commercial electricians try their hand at being an electrical contractor, and fail. It was almost always because they thought that is was enough to just be able to install the electrical work. In truth, that is only one part of what is required to be a successful commercial electrical contractor.

To start with, the estimating and bidding technique is much more involved.

You should first do a detailed review of the complete plans and specs to determine exactly what your scope of work will be -- and sometimes that scope or work can hinge on just a few key words.

Generally, in the event of a conflict in requirements, the specs will overrule the plans. In the real world, this is usually backwards -- the plans are usually drawn for the specific project, but the specs are often "canned" and will have stuff in them that shouldn't apply or that contradict the plans. Be sure you understand the hierarchy of how conflicts in "requirements" are decided.

Be sure and look at the architectual and mechanical drawings and specs, too, since they sometimes have electrical stuff shown there. Also read the "General Conditions" (Division 1) of the Specs, as this will set many of the ground rules for the project, and will directly affect you.

The estimate will be a detailed bill of material of everything that is required to install the project. Then labor units are applied to that bill of material to determine the "book labor" (i.e. the manhours) that normal conditions will take for the installation. That book labor is then factored up or down to adjust for specific job conditions (like a compressed work schedule, etc.).

If you miss some of the materials required, you miss both the cost of the materials and the corresponding labor hours in your estimate. But you have to furnish them anyway.

You have to look at the total estimated manhours compared to the time frame that you will have to perform the work within to see what the manloading will have to be. I've seen a lot of small contractors just look at the plans and say "I can do this work in this many days". They were almost always wrong, and underestimate how long it would take them.

Unless they have direct experience at it, no commercial/industrial electricians are qualified to put together a bid. That is a very specialized skill.

Are there some large commercial electrical contractors in your area? One of their estimators might be willing to do estimates on the side for you if it doesn't conflict with the work his company does. Also, a lot of retired estimators do small estimates and bids after they retire. Find one and get him to teach you the ropes. You'll find that it's much easier to find qualified commercial electricians than it is qualified estimators.

There are some quality estimating services available. They will cost less than a bad bid will cost you.

It's not unusual for a GC to try to tell you how much the electrical work should run on a particular project. They will tell you that you should be able to do the work for $X and make money at it. Never fall for this. If you don't know pretty accurately how much it should cost you to do a particular project, then back away from it. The odds are the GC will bait you (they learn to read when a sub doesn't know what they are doing).

Timely payment is often a problem. You are usually only paid monthly, and retainage (typically 10%) is usually withheld. Work that you do in March will be billed around the end of the month. You will usually be paid around the end of the next month (in this example the end of April). That is if you and the GC are getting along -- they can/will use your payments as leverage against you.

I've seen EC's be 3 months into their work before they ever get paid anything. On some small jobs, their work is finished before they are ever paid anything. Make sure that you have the capitol to handle that type of cash flow (or lack thereof).

Contract language, provisions and requirements can differ widely and can kill you. Most GC's use their own standard contract -- guess whose favor that is written in (hint, it ain't in your favor). Use a standard AIA or AGC subcontract if you can. Those are reasonably balanced. The AIA form is probably the most evenhanded. I recommend that you qualify in your bid that your price is based on the use of a standard AIA subcontract. If you don't know how to read and understand contract language, then go over the contract with an attorney that is experienced in construction law and litigation. Construction law is a very specialized field, and an expert in it is worth his weight in gold -- a general purpose attorney will get you into trouble.

Be sure that the scope of work that was in your bid actually ends up in your contract. The GC will typically write your scope such that you will do all of the electrical work required on the project. This contract language will supercede your "bid" scope of work. If you sign a contract like that, you will be responsible for all of the electrical work on the project, whether it was in your bid or not.

Be sure and look for insurance requirements (Owners and GC's often require that you carry them as an "Additional Insured" on their policy.) They often also have a clause in their contract that makes you responsible for their mistakes and negligence as well as for your own. In many states, this clause is legal and will stand up in court. Review insurance requirements with a good insurance agent that is a specialist in construction work. A general purpose agent will get you into trouble.

A good Commercial General Liability policy is essential. If someone gets hurt or something gets damaged and you are named in the lawsuit, your insurance company will have to pay for your legal defense. Without liability coverage, you will have to pay for your own legal defense. You can be included in a suit and have to defend yourself, even if you did absolutely nothing wrong. You will have to pay for the legal costs just to prove that you shouldn't be a party to the suit.

Be sure and verify that someone is providing "Builders Risk" insurance coverage, and that you are an "Additional Insured" on that policy. Builder's Risk is what pays to have a job rebuilt that is 90% complete when a tornado blows it away or a fire burns it down. Otherwise, you can be obligated to do your work over again without any additional payment.

Find out if the GC is providing a "Payment Bond" to the Owner. Is it a partial bond or a 100% bond? Make sure that you clearly understand everything that you must do to obtain payment protection under that bond. Simply not providing a timely written notice to the bonding company when it is required will cost you payment protection under the bond. To keep bond protections in place you must do everything precisely as prescribed by law -- ignorance of the requirements will not help you collect. Bond protection detailed procedures vary from state to state, so know the rules in the state you are working in.

Also be sure that you understand the lien laws in your state as they apply to commercial construction. If you miss a filing deadline - too bad! If you don't file the proper documents in the proper form - too bad.

Be sure and clarify if you do or do not have temporary power and lighting included in your contract. This can cost a bundle.

Be sure and look for specified performance time frames and "Liquidated Damages". Remember that the EC performs most of his work in the last half (or less) of the building process (and schedule), and you and the painter are always the last guys on the job. Slow progress at the start of the job will mean you are working under a compressed time schedule to make the deadline -- that may well mean multiple shifts and/or overtime (at your own expense) or you'll pay big "LD's".

Don't do any changes on a verbal agreement -- if you do, you'll end up donating that work. Get it in writing first before you do it (at an agreed price, with extra time added to you contract time).

Watch for a trash, site and building cleanup sharing clause. It isn't unusual for the GC to split up all of his building and site cleanup costs and dump fees between all of the subs, even if you took care of all of your own trash.

Good documentation will eventually make or break you. Learn to be good at paperwork or stick to small stuff.

Make sure that the owner is solvent and has the money to pay for the project. They can go bust leaving you with an unpaid billing.

Make very sure that you thoroughly check out a GC (especially if they're from out of state). Do they have a reputation for slow pay or no pay? I've seen many small electrical contractors go under from underhanded GCs that give them work, pay them just a little, string them along, and end up paying just part of their contract amount. Usually, the small EC goes bust because he doesn't have the money to pay the legal costs to collect. Lack of capitol usually puts them under before the GC has to worry about them.

Some of these things may not apply to small work with people that you know. But if you get into any larger work with GC's that you don't know, all of them will eventually matter and other things that I haven't thought to mention, too.

My advice to a number of small contractors has always been -- don't risk more than you can afford to lose. Never take on a single project that could bankrupt you if it goes badly or if you don't get paid.

Also, consider how this project will affect your ability to do other work for clients that you already have. Don't overload yourself to the extent that you lose the business that paid for your current success.

Stick with small projects until you learn the ropes. Don't try to grow too fast. Don't take on too large of a single project - one that can break you if it goes wrong. Often it goes wrong for reasons that are completely out of your control. You can do good work and the project still turn sour. Limit your risk to what you can afford to lose without going broke.

The main problem areas aren't new, just bigger and more complex:
1. Is your price high enough to actually do the work that is in your scope of work?
2. Will you get paid? How fast, how often, or ever? Do you have the cash set aside and available to cash-flow (i.e. bankroll) the project if your payments are delayed or withheld? Borrowing money to do it is very risky.
3. Do you understand your contract requirements and provisions and do you agree with all of them?
4. Will your scope of work remain what you intended and planned for, or will there be more work added that you didn't anticipate and that you'll have to perform without any additional money? Remember that if the GC is obligated to include some electrical work that isn't included in your bid, they will try to force you to do it. If it's a choice between their pocket or yours, it will be yours.
5. If things go bad, what recourses do you have? Are those recourses practical, or will they cost you more money than you stand to collect? Attorneys cost a lot of money and don't usually take on construction suits on a contingency basis, so you're paying by the hour. If you win, you may still not recover all of your legal costs.
6. Are you inadvertently taking on liabilities that you didn't recognize and never anticipated?
7. Are you technically qualified to do the work involved? Do you have enough experience and knowledge?
8. Do you have the manpower, tools and equipment and other resources required to perform the work in the time-frame required without holding up job progress?

No answers to any of these questions are big red flags.

Nine times our of ten, everything will go OK -- pretty much as you planned. But sooner or later, the tenth one will arrive and you will bite a sour project. If you plan ahead and are prepared, you'll probably survive it. If you're too trusting and just assume everyone will treat you honestly and with honor and will always tell you the truth -- prepare to have your pocket picked.

Are you performing as a sole proprietor or are you performing as a corporation or other legal entity that will shield you personally from big liabilities? Be sure that you understand all of the pros and cons of each form of business entity, including their different tax structures.

Sorry if I rambled a bit here, but there is a lot to learn about commercial/industrial/governmental/military construction in general, and the associated electrical work in particular.

Also remember that if a job looks too good to be true, then it's probably not true. Fish are caught every day with nice smelling (to them) bait. GC's are not in business to knowingly give you high profit jobs -- they plan to keep as much of the money as they can (sometimes including yours, if you let them).

I'm not trying to scare you away from doing commercial work -- it's good work and there is money to be made there. But there is usually a lot of competition, so it's no gold mine. I'm just trying to forewarn you about some of the traps and pitfalls to watch out for -- forewarned is forearmed!

[ March 23, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: tx2step ]
 
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