CSST Bonding

[aaronm]

Bond it or Bend Over

Bond it or Bend Over

All the technical supposition aside, perhaps the best reason to bond CSST is subrogation. Law firms across the country are being hired by insurance companies to take on CSST installations in order to put the monkey on the backs of the plumbers, electricians and inspectors associated with them. Just Google CSST subrogation and read for a while. So, bond it or bend over. =-)

 

[kwired]

All the technical supposition aside, perhaps the best reason to bond CSST is subrogation. Law firms across the country are being hired by insurance companies to take on CSST installations in order to put the monkey on the backs of the plumbers, electricians and inspectors associated with them. Just Google CSST subrogation and read for a while. So, bond it or bend over. =-)

I did not look up your term, but why should it be my problem if I did not specify, provide or install the product? I see it in a way like having black pipe for gas lines and blaming the electrician for not using pipe thread compound.

This is not the electricians system, those that install it should be qualified to install it including additional bonding if necessary. NEC has required us to install intersystem bonding terminations for a while now I see this as one good example of putting that requirement to use.

 

[north star]

( - - - - )

Subrogation: verb (used with object), sub?ro?gat?ed, sub?ro?gat?ing.
1. To put into the place of another; substitute for another.

2. Civil Law. to substitute (one person) for another with reference to a claim
or right.

---

Origin:
1400?50; 1540?50 for def 1; late Middle English (past participle)
< Latin subrog?tus (past participle of subrog?re to nominate (someone) as a
substitute), equivalent to sub- sub- + rog? ( re ) to request + -tus past participle
suffix.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

With regard to who should be installing the CSST products, ...IMO, it should
be a very well qualified individual who thoroughly knows all aspects of the product.
That said, ...if someone has a choice of whom to choose to install the bonding &
grounding requirements, ...who would be the most logical choice, ...a well qualified
Plumbing Contractor or a well qualified Electrical Contractor ?..........Keep in mind
that most; if not all, plumbers are not trained to install electrical components or
systems in their training.


( - - - - )

 

[kwired]

( - - - - )

Subrogation: verb (used with object), sub?ro?gat?ed, sub?ro?gat?ing.
1. To put into the place of another; substitute for another.

2. Civil Law. to substitute (one person) for another with reference to a claim
or right.

---

Origin:
1400?50; 1540?50 for def 1; late Middle English (past participle)
< Latin subrog?tus (past participle of subrog?re to nominate (someone) as a
substitute), equivalent to sub- sub- + rog? ( re ) to request + -tus past participle
suffix.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

With regard to who should be installing the CSST products, ...IMO, it should
be a very well qualified individual who thoroughly knows all aspects of the product.
That said, ...if someone has a choice of whom to choose to install the bonding &
grounding requirements, ...who would be the most logical choice, ...a well qualified
Plumbing Contractor or a well qualified Electrical Contractor ?..........Keep in mind
that most; if not all, plumbers are not trained to install electrical components or
systems in their training.


( - - - - )

But many HVAC contractors have no issue with running 24 volt control wiring, or even running power to their units in some instances and screwing up system components because of their mistakes, but bonding their gas lines is too complex:slaphead:

 

[north star]

( - - - - )

"But many HVAC contractors have no issue with running 24 volt control wiring, or even running power to their units in some instances and screwing up system components because of their mistakes, but bonding their gas lines is too complex :slaphead: "

Agree about [ IMO ], a large per centage of the HVAC contractors
out there.............So now; for all intents & purposes, another
possible trade contractor to install electrical components &
systems, should be removed from consideration.

Not Plumbing Contractors, ...not HVAC Contractors, ...certainly
not Carpenters \ Framers, ...not Concrete Finishers, ...not
Roofing Contractors, ...not Painting Contractors.

Who is left ? :blink:..................Again, who is the most logical ?
Give us solutions man, ...give us solutions !


( - - - - )

 

[aaronm]

Plumber vs. Electrician

Plumber vs. Electrician

I, for one, do not want a plumber wiring, grounding, or bonding anything in my house or any house I inspect.

 

[charlie b]

That said, ...if someone has a choice of whom to choose to install the bonding & grounding requirements, ...who would be the most logical choice, ...a well qualified Plumbing Contractor or a well qualified Electrical Contractor ?

That is not the relevant question, or at least it wasn't for me. We bought a house that had an electric stove, and we had a gas stove. There is no natural gas supply within a half block of the house, and the gas company wanted us to pay $15K or more to bring gas to our house. So we bought a propane tank, and paid a plumber to run the piping from the tank to the kitchen. There is no electrical anything run with or near the gas pipe. The only electrical thing associated with the stove is the plug & cord connected fan. There already was a standard duplex receptacle behind the stove, and it has an EGC. So at what point was I supposed to discern that there was a need to contact an electrician? At this point, I still don't know if there is a need. The pipes that I can see outside the house are solid metal. The CSST is run entirely in the crawl space under the house, and that space is not easy to access. The CSST may have been bonded to something under the house, presuming the plumber knew there was a need to do that. The main service panel's GEC runs through that area.

As I said earlier, in a few months, we will have a plumber working in the crawl space, tapping into the CSST to allow connection of a new gas fireplace (replacing the wood burning version). I will have a look then.

Anyway, I appreciate the information that everyone has provided.

 

[kwired]

I, for one, do not want a plumber wiring, grounding, or bonding anything in my house or any house I inspect.

Neither do I, but I also do not want him running CSST in my house either:happyyes:


Like I said we are supposed to install intersystem bonding devices. This is not an electrical system. If they can't train themselves to install their product then maybe they need to find something else to do. If I connect a bonding wire to it, it is now partly my liability isn't it, though I didn't want anything to do with it?

 

[north star]

= = = ( 4 )

charlie b. asked:
"So at what point was I supposed to discern that there was a need to contact an electrician? At this point, I
still don't know if there is a need. The pipes that I can see outside the house are solid metal........The CSST is run
entirely in the crawl space under the house, and that space is not easy to access.............The CSST may have been
bonded to something under the house, presuming the plumber knew there was a need to do that.......The main
service panel's GEC runs through that area."

IMO, ...the first place to start would be to ask some questions on the Mike Holt Forum, or on a
sister Forum [ aka - "The Building Codes Forum" ].......2nd, ...perform a due diligence search
online to inquire & ask questions.........3rd, call some liquid propane companies and inquire.
4th, Article 250.104(B), in the `08 NEC discusses "Other metal piping" [ RE: "likely to
become energized" ].

From doing some preliminary research online and in the various code books [ RE: NFPA 58,
...the `08 NEC, ...the`12 IRC & the `12 IFC ], as long as the liquid propane piping itself is
below grade, or if above grade, has the EGC connected back to an approved location,
then by the standards referenced, ...no additional bonding is required !


The CSST is a whole other matter !.........If the CSST was already installed, then refer to
that specific manufacturer; either online, or by calling their Technical Department to
discuss.


Respectfully, but the responsibility would be yours to find out the requirements of
anything in your house......That is just one of the many benefits of home ownership.


Regarding the various contractors [ FWIW ], ...because you are a person with "above
average knowledge & technical expertise", I am sure that you already know whom to
ask for trusted input on the various components and systems within your home.

Hope this helps !


( 21 ) = = =

 

[kwired]

Respectfully, but the responsibility would be yours to find out the requirements of
anything in your house......That is just one of the many benefits of home ownership.

Isn't that part of why owners hire qualified contractors and have permits and inspections?

Doesn't hurt to educate oneself, but many expect that if they hire a professional they will get a professional job.

 

[GoldDigger]

Is the ISBT really intended for bonding plumbing and gas piping?

Tapatalk!

 

[north star]

= = = ( 5# )

"Isn't that part of why owners hire qualified contractors and have permits and inspections?

Please define qualified for the average homeowner !

"Doesn't hurt to educate oneself, but many expect that if they hire a professional they will get a professional job."

That expectation can get the average homeowner, and others, in to a lot of trouble,
especially if a thorough research of the contractor-of-choice is not performed,
or unless the quality, integrity and character of the contractor is not known.

A Given Premise: Researching various contractors for their reputability, integrity &
financial standing is a very, very time consuming and costly undertaking.......Even then,
you may not know.

What I am trying to promote is to know your contractors before you hire them [ if
possible ]........Sometimes, that is simply not possible !


( &1 ) = = =

 

[north star]

` ` ` ` 0 ` ` ` `

GoldDigger asked:
"Is the ISBT really intended for bonding plumbing and gas piping?"

According to Article 100 - Definitions [ `08 NEC ], the ISBT is for communications systems.


` ` ` ` 0 ` ` ` `

 

[kwired]

= = = ( 5# )

Please define qualified for the average homeowner !


That expectation can get the average homeowner, and others, in to a lot of trouble,
especially if a thorough research of the contractor-of-choice is not performed,
or unless the quality, integrity and character of the contractor is not known.

A Given Premise: Researching various contractors for their reputability, integrity &
financial standing is a very, very time consuming and costly undertaking.......Even then,
you may not know.

What I am trying to promote is to know your contractors before you hire them [ if
possible ]........Sometimes, that is simply not possible !


( &1 ) = = =

so I guess it is a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of situation.

One can say the same thing for pretty much all other service industries out there as well as for consumer goods. Somewhere you have to give the professional some edge that he just may happen to know at least some of what he is doing.

 

[north star]

~ ~ & ~ ~

" ...so I guess it is a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of situation.

One can say the same thing for pretty much all other service industries out there as well as for consumer goods. Somewhere you have to give the professional some edge that he just may happen to know at least some of what he is doing."

Sometimes it is a "d"mned if you do and d_mned if you don't situation."
It would be very prudent & wise for anyone considering hiring any type
of contractor to perform some in-depth research on who they are
planning to hire. :happyyes:


~ ~ & ~ ~