Cheaters in Load Center

[Sierrasparky]

Sum of the breakers do not determine the load in panel. There are calculations that need to be run.

By the way
Welcome to the Forum!

 

[kwired]

OK,so a 20 space/20 circuit load center will physically not allow the use of a "cheater" breaker. So it won't allow a 15 amp cheater but what's to stop me from installing a 30 amp double pole?

Outside of physical rejection how about rules covering overcurrent protection?

Now if you install a 30 and from that supply a feeder that splits into two 15 amp branch circuits (sub panel and two 15 amp breakers) then there is nothing wrong here from overcurrent protection perspective.

 

[suemarkp]

I'm not sure if the circuit limitation on a panelboard relates to the number of neutral slots or not, but it is one of my beefs with some of these panels -- if you're getting near the max breaker count, I'm usually out of available neutral terminals. You know many of these tandems are going to be 120V circuits requiring a neutral. I've added separate grounding bars to free up neutral slots in Service panels (by getting the grounding conductors off of it), since adding a longer neutral bar is not usually possible.

A 20/20 panel is probably going to have 20 neutral terminals. Chocking it full of tandems is going to be a problem. A 20/40 panel should have about 40 neutral terminals.

 

[LeeLee]

"By the way
Welcome to the Forum!"

Thanks Sparky!

 

[LeeLee]

Suemarkp,

"A 20/20 panel is probably going to have 20 neutral terminals. Chocking it full of tandems is going to be a problem. A 20/40 panel should have about 40 neutral terminals."

I guess what confuses me still is that according to some of the posters on this thread,the bus size(ampacity) of a 20/20 and a 20/40 are the same,so why have a 20/20 at all and just put the 40 neutral terminals in all of them and allow tandems?

 

[LeeLee]

Sierrasparky,

"Yes it would. What I don't know is why the manufactureres do this other than so they can charge more for a more breaker listed panel. I say this as I have on the shelf some 20/20 panels and some 20/24 panels. Each one has the same thickness buss bar, each one is rated at 125 amps, each one has the same number of spaces. BUT.....
The 20/24 panel has a section cut out of some of the stabs to accept twin breakers. That makes less buss mass than the 20/20 panel.
Other than the sticker on the panel why can't I place a twin in the 20/20 panel."


Based on what you just wrote,I'm confused like you. I hate not understanding something,especially when it doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[GoldDigger]

Cost, marketing, and local electrical codes all come to mind.

 

[kwired]

For dwellings most of this is all a mute point with the number of AFCI's needed these days, unless you can find me a "tandem" AFCI.

Mobile and manufactured homes were real popular places for panels containing tandems and quad breakers. I think weight was one of their main reasons - this thing did have to travel down a road at some point. They also probably purchased them in large enough quantity to get a decent price on them, most of us that wire on site constructed homes don't seem to get that good of a price for tandems to justify their use over the standard breakers - this was the way it was before AFCI came along anyway.