Cheaters in Load Center

[LeeLee]

OK,so a 20 space/20 circuit load center will physically not allow the use of a "cheater" breaker. So it won't allow a 15 amp cheater but what's to stop me from installing a 30 amp double pole?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't get what you are saying. You can install a dp 30 breaker but that is not an issue. The issue is the panel is rated for a certain number of spaces and that's it. Of course, you can still overload the panel but that is a different issue.

 

[charlie b]

I don't know what a "cheater" is, nor what you plan to do with the 30 amp breaker. But you can't use a 30 amp 2-pole breaker to serve one or two 15 amp loads. Reference NEC 210.21(B).

 

[Sierrasparky]

OK,so a 20 space/20 circuit load center will physically not allow the use of a "cheater" breaker. So it won't allow a 15 amp cheater but what's to stop me from installing a 30 amp double pole?

I do not know what you refer to as a cheater breaker, I would think that a cheater would be a breaker that is non-CTL meaning it does not have the rejection clips or plastic that limits a full space only breaker to be installed. Other that the notes on the panel , codes etc there is nothing to stop you from installing one of these cheater breakers.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think a cheater breaker is a piggy back or twin breaker

 

[Sierrasparky]

1. I think a cheater breaker is a piggy back or twin breaker

Those are generally non-CTL in this case as the OP states a 20 20 load center

 

[charlie b]

And what is CTL?

• Close The Loop?
• Can't Tell a Lie?
• Constantly Turning Left?
• Chamomile Tea Lover?
• Chance to Teach a Lesson?
• Complete Two Laps?
  

 

[John120/240]

I think a cheater breaker is a piggy back or twin breaker

That has always been my understanding. I didn't know the exact terminology for "CTL" until now

And what is CTL?

• Close The Loop?
• Can't Tell a Lie?
• Constantly Turning Left?
• Chamomile Tea Lover?
• Chance to Teach a Lesson?
• Complete Two Laps?
  

Wikipedia says CTL is "Circuit Total Limitation"....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_total_limitation

 

[iwire]

In this case I am sure 'cheater breaker' means a 1" wide breaker that contains two individual overcurrent devices. They are both fed from the same bus stab so there is no potential between them but you can get two line to neutral circuits from them.

CTL stands for Circuit Total Limitation. It is a rejection feature that prevents using these breakers in panels that are not designed for them or to limit the number of them you can install.


I know you are not a 'wiki' fan but work with me here. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_total_limitation

 

[charlie b]

And LeeLee, that brings us back to the question of what you plan to do with the 2-pole 30 amp breaker, and how you are anticipating that it will resolve your present concern.

 

[John120/240]

And LeeLee, that brings us back to the question of what you plan to do with the 2-pole 30 amp breaker, and how you are anticipating that it will resolve your present concern.

Possibly to a very small sub panel (capacity wise) ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think the OP is thinking that he cannot simply put in a twin breaker of 15 amps but he could use a dp 30 which theoretically will draw more current than his twin breakers. I think there is a lack of understanding of what the listing of the panel is all about. Of course one could illegally put in 40 circuits into the panel and never overload it just as one could install 10 circuit breakers and overload the panel. It has nothing to do with breaker sizes.

If the panel is sq.d it could be one of these or one like Bob shows in his post

 

[Smart $]

I believe manufacturers make non-CTL tandems that'll fit in CTL panel spaces. Using one (or more) where not rated for tandem breakers would be a panel listing violation.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I believe manufacturers make non-CTL tandems that'll fit in CTL panel spaces. Using one (or more) where not rated for tandem breakers would be a panel listing violation.

Yes it would. What I don't know is why the manufactureres do this other than so they can charge more for a more breaker listed panel. I say this as I have on the shelf some 20/20 panels and some 20/24 panels. Each one has the same thickness buss bar, each one is rated at 125 amps, each one has the same number of spaces. BUT.....
The 20/24 panel has a section cut out of some of the stabs to accept twin breakers. That makes less buss mass than the 20/20 panel.
Other than the sticker on the panel why can't I place a twin in the 20/20 panel.


This stuff is becomming less and less a issue because of AFCI And GFCI breaker use. But why do we need the breaker Police on this?

 

[LeeLee]

Yes Dennis,that is what I'm getting at. I don't like the term "cheaters" but that is what I hear them referred to as. I'll use tandem instead. I guess I don't understand the ratings of load panels completely. I know a 20 space/20 circuit load center will physically not allow a tandem breaker. So a 15 amp tandem could possibly allow 30 amps through that one space. Now I can put a 30 amp double pole and possibly have 30 amps per space. This brings me to what I'm looking to do. I have a 20/20 load center with a 125 amp rating set up as a sub panel being fed by a 90 amp breaker in the 200 amp main panel using #3 THHN. I want to put a 30 amp 240V circuit in this sub panel. However,knowing that I couldn't put a 15 amp tandem in there(I don't want to),is it advisable to put the 30 amp 240V circuit in the sub,or should I move two circuits from the main into the sub,and put my new 30/240 in the main? Thanks for all who've replied.

 

[GoldDigger]

The circuit limitation has no direct connection to load current, or even to current on a single stab.
It was an artificial distinction introduced by the manufacturers with the assistance of the NEC.
It probably originally had both fill-factor type safety concerns and simple marketing concerns.
If you do not want to defeat the manufacturer's instruction by using non-CTL breakers, then moving some circuits to a sub panel and using the space they free up for your feeder to the sub is one way to go.

 

[mjf]

you'll be fine putting a double pole 30 amp breaker in your sub panel. The fact that it won't accept tandem breakers has no bearing on the situation.

 

[LeeLee]

Golddigger,

"It probably originally had both fill-factor type safety concerns and simple marketing concerns."

.....and that is another concept I haven't grasped. If you fill a 30 space,150 amp load center with 30 15 amp breakers,haven't you theoretically "overloaded" the load center by 150 amps? Even so,big deal....isn't it the job of the main breaker to protect everything?
Funny you mention AFCI's. They are the whole reason I had to install the sub. My main was full and resorted to some tandems. I wanted to upgrade to all AFCI's but since they don't make a tandem AFCI,I had to get rid of the tandems,hence the need for a sub. Anyway,it seems like the 30 amp 240V circuit will be fine in my sub. Thanks to all for your help.

 

[GoldDigger]

Golddigger,

"It probably originally had both fill-factor type safety concerns and simple marketing concerns."

.....and that is another concept I haven't grasped. If you fill a 30 space,150 amp load center with 30 15 amp breakers,haven't you theoretically "overloaded" the load center by 150 amps? Even so,big deal....isn't it the job of the main breaker to protect everything?
Funny you mention AFCI's. They are the whole reason I had to install the sub. My main was full and resorted to some tandems. I wanted to upgrade to all AFCI's but since they don't make a tandem AFCI,I had to get rid of the tandems,hence the need for a sub. Anyway,it seems like the 30 amp 240V circuit will be fine in my sub. Thanks to all for your help.

Not at all. The whole rationale underlying OCPD under the NEC is that where the loads are predictable (calculable), the contribution of each circuit to the load on the panel bus is just the calculated load which is going to be on that circuit.
For some circuits, like lighting circuits, the calculated load is based either on the installed luminaires or a default wattage per square foot that goes back to incandescents. For receptacle circuits there is an assumed power draw per outlet.
For some circuits like SABCs the expected loads are often higher, especially when there are known loads that will connect to them.
But just adding up the breaker values will give you an overestimate many times the calculated load, and the calculated load is in turn larger than the real load most of the time.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The breaker size means nothing. You can have a dp 30 amp breaker and only have 8 amps on it or you can have 2- 25 amp breakers each with 10 amps on it. You have to calculate the load not count the breakers.

I am sure that part of the reason was to limit breakers depending on the size of the panel. Theoretically you can have 100 breakers in a 100 amp panel and not overload the panel. Suppose I put a overcurrent protective device in for each receptacle I install in a house. The load is no different but I used alot of spaces. Unfortunately if the panel is designed for 20 breakers then that is the maximum number of breakers we are allowed to install in the panel even if the panel can handle more load