charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

[yanert]

Hi,
I was working on a new construction site the other day, and I watched a carpenter lay a circ saw on a wood laminate floor too quickly and cut a small notch in the wood. I guess the guard didnt come back in time. The next day I heard the the contractor docked him pay for the cost to fix it. Is this even legal?? I have always had the thought that mistakes happen and have never done it. However, I have never had gross neglact or mistakes happen on my jobs. Any comments or thought about this?? Is this not what insurance is for?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

No it's not legal and he could turn it over to the labor board.However if his boss suggested he pay for it or get fired i think that would fly.All of us make a few mistakes and sometime cause damage or injury.It's all part of the job cost.Is it possible he has warned the man several times before ? Yes guards can get stuck open and with the number of cuts a carpenter makes it can and will happen.If he was getting rushed this could be part of it.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by yanert:
the contractor docked him pay for the cost to fix it. Is this even legal??

No it is not legal. How does he explain it to his accountant? He could, however hand the employee a bill for the repair.

I have always had the thought that mistakes happen and have never done it.

I feel it is imperative to hire competent people. Just as a G.C. should try to hire competent subs.
That said, mistakes can and do happen. But owning up to a mistake is important.
And don't make too many.

We scratched a hardwood floor pulling a dishwasher out to hook it up. The guy who installed the thing, got it wedged-in. The dishwasher was stuck on a corner and a little extra tug sent the thing skipping. The metal foot went right through the cardboard that we laid down for protection. We paid for the repair. Why should the G.C. eat the cost of our mistake?

I'm not going to fire a guy for dropping the glass globe off of a $250.00 special order hall light, but why should my company eat the cost of his mistake?
Now, he might not get a bill for the globe, but when I need someone to work late to get a project done, etc., guess who is the first one to be asked to stay.

Is this not what insurance is for?

The cost of that repair might not meet the deductible. It probably isn't worth the time to file a claim.

 

[harborrick]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

I have been in business for 18 years or so.I have had some real winners as far as employees.Yes mistakes happen.
Why should the employer pay for all the mistakes.
Makeup problems,wiring mistakes.
The employer should not always pay for the time it takes to fix problems.How about the employee who gets to lazy and doesn't properly spice and pigtails their neutrals.I have paid for a TV and microwave and a few radios in my time.
I think anyone who makes a big mistake should offer to make things right.

 

[hurk27]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

I have worked for 1 contractors that required us to go back and do repairs on our own time when we made an out right violation or mis-wired or forgot a circuit. small mistakes we would just catch on the return trip. They figured that why should they have to pay us twice to do the same job. One employee tried to fight this rule and receive back pay after he was fired for making to many mistakes but was told that because it was in the contract that we signed and it was legal. And this was by the state unemployment office.

I don't think it was legal but we were paid a small salary and then paid a bid amount for each house we did.
This method did have it's merit's to get workers to move fast and produce good work. We could make as much as we wanted (if there was work) or as little.
Large jobs were based upon each area of the job we did, which was determined by what was bid on that part of the job. There was conflicks sometimes when we felt the part of the job was bidded too low but most of the time the amount was taken right off the bid sheet and reduced for overhead.

 

[iwire]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by harborrick:
I have been in business for 18 years or so.I have had some real winners as far as employees.Yes mistakes happen.
Why should the employer pay for all the mistakes.

Because when things go right you get the big rewards.

All part of the gamble of running a business isn't it?

 

[chrsb]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

I have talked about this topic with my fellow workers before and have always had the same response(I am now a contractor). Employees should not have to pay for mistakes, they are not the ones in business, they make the same amount no matter what. When the employer makes a killing on a job the employees do not see any more in their pay check(most the time). If a certain employee constantly makes mistakes then the person would no longer be with the company. It is up to the employer to hire competent employees.

Years ago I had an employer who took some money out of my paycheck for a red tag on a job that I didn't even do, so in return I loaded 4 rolls of bare #6 on my van, a few cases of cans, and some rolls of romex and called it even(25 dollars was taken out of my check). The employees will get their money back one way or another and then some. If the employee is a honest and hard worker there is no need to mess with a mans paycheck.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Thing to do is keep documentation on this.Exact address ,time ,who was witness,etc. Then start looking for a new job.When you find one you start the payback system and screw up as much hidden stuff as you can.LIke leave out home runs or mis splice or run conduit wrong.But only stuff that cant be called vandalism.Then just don't show up for work and start new job.And the next biggy is turned this over to labor board and place a lean on the job.The lean will get your boss a real butt chewing .

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

When people work for someone there is always alot of btch btch btch. Try running a business and see how many times you want to pay for some dopes screw ups. :roll: We all make mistakes and it is withnin reason as an owner to fix it and let it go, but if it is a regular problem I'd say let the mistake maker be the mistake fixer on their own dime.

[ January 05, 2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Chris, I agree with you up to the "equalization." Employers on average tend to drive nice cars, I drive a POS and eat ramen at this point. I would be highly irritated if charged for a re-inspection.

I can't condone the taking of material to compensate for taking money out of a check. Then again, my name is my login, sacrificing anonyomity. Talking goes a long way.

 

[jtester]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

I designed a health clinic recently. A union contractor was doing the electrical. At rough-in, the inspector noticed that all of the receptacles were mounted in violation of our ADA rules, they were too low. I had to ask the contractor to raise them, literally hundreds. He said no problem, and took care of it with no argument at all. I had been ready for a real fight.
Later I heard that in this part of the country, since a union employee made this mistake, he or the union, would correct it at no cost to the contractor. This probably didn't take a lot of additional material, but the union electricians spent an entire weekend raising boxes for free.
Jim T

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by chrsb:
The employees will get their money back one way or another and then some.

Stealing is not the way to do it. All respect for you has been lost.

If the employee is a honest and hard worker there is no need to mess with a mans paycheck.

If the employee screws up, it messes with the boss' paycheck. But that's OK?

So, because the boss makes more money than the employee, he is automatically supposed to take the hit?

The employee gets rewarded with a paycheck.
Would he rather get a pink slip.

Why should good money be distributed to employees? That money could be used for buying new equipment, trucks, tools, End of year Bonus, better insurance, paid sick days, no lay-offs on down time, yearly raises, paid vacations, and many other things that a company provides for emloyees that they never even know about.

If it is a big job, the boss may have floated a loan to front the materials and the employee payroll until he gets a draw and now there is intrest to be paid.
Does the employee have the availible funds to not take a paycheck for 60 to 90 days but show up and work? Some might, most do not.

There are Gross receipts taxes. Some of my company's money is tripple taxed because of 3 different city gross receipt taxes.

The monetary rewards might be greater by owning a business, but that doesn't mean that there is not a great risk involved.

It is a gamble, and the losses can be great to the boss. To the point of bankruptcy. So why should the boss not make the return on his investment?

 

[harborrick]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Thinking like a theif and acting like a theif will get you a free ride to prison.
I pay my employees what the ask for and all I ask is you come to work and give a honest 8 hours.
If you are lien about what you know,then you need to be held acountable.
Yes,if I so called (MAKE A KILLING)on a job share the wealth with my guys.I give them bonus and time off with pay.
Do you employees not take pride in what you are doing?
As employees we put in double the hours and risk. Hopefully employees will learn from their mistakes and take pride in what you do.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Thing to do is keep documentation on this.Exact address ,time ,who was witness,etc. Then start looking for a new job.

I agree.

When you find one you start the payback system and screw up as much hidden stuff as you can.LIke leave out home runs or mis splice or run conduit wrong.But only stuff that cant be called vandalism.

No. You take it on the chin, and own up to your mistake.

Then just don't show up for work and start new job.

I agree. An employee always has the right to look for other employment opportunities.

[QUOTE} And the next biggy is turned this over to labor board and place a lean on the job.The lean will get your boss a real butt chewing . [/QUOTE]

You can always call the labor board with a dispute.
The lein, if you would even be able place, depending on your state laws, would cost you even more mone in attorney's fees.

I do not understand the phenomena of 'let me screw up and someone else take the hit'.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by georgestolz:


I can't condone the taking of material to compensate for taking money out of a check.

-------Wise words mr. stolz-----

 

[petersonra]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

I don't know about other states but in Illinois IIRC, you cannot require an employee to pay for damages unless the employee agrees in writing and its passed by the state labor board (or whomever handles such things).

My guess is this almost never happens and probably there are employers who do require employees to pay for breakage and are not called on it.

I think an honest mistake resulting in damage is something that just happens now and then. I have seen experienced engineers blow up drives. OTOH, if its malicious or a pattern of stupid behavior that causes the damage, its probably best to find yourself a new employee.

If the individual in question is not actually an employee, but a subcontractor, then its that individuals problem to fix it, IMO.

(I really need to learn to type better so I don't have to keep going back and editing out my mistakes).

[ January 05, 2005, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by petersonra: (I really need to learn to type better so I don't have to keep going back and editing out my mistakes).

Try what I do: I keep a copy of MS Word running when I?m reading through the Forum. When I want to type anything (like I am doing now), I type it into a Word document (that I never save), and then paste it into the Forum?s reply box. That gives me an automatic spell check, and more importantly, lets me edit what I write before I even attempt to post it.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
When you find one you start the payback system and screw up as much hidden stuff as you can.LIke leave out home runs or mis splice or run conduit wrong.But only stuff that cant be called vandalism.

----------------------I, just can't beleive what I'm reading on MHE site.Surely the most popular and visited site on the web.To condone stealing and sabotage to get even with the contractor.(shaking my head).I'm not what you call "pro-management" but I'll not sacrifice my name or craft...You guys just did both,in a very big way...

[ January 05, 2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[roger]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

Originally posted by dillon3c:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
When you find one you start the payback system and screw up as much hidden stuff as you can.LIke leave out home runs or mis splice or run conduit wrong.But only stuff that cant be called vandalism.

----------------------I, just can't beleive what I'm reading on MHE site.Surely the most popular and visited site on the web.To condone stealing and sabotage to get even with the contractor.(shaking my head).I'm not what you call "pro-management" but I'll not sacrifice my name or craft...You guys just did both,in a very big way...

Dillon, I absolutely agree with You, Todd, Iwire, and Scott.

Roger

 

[chrsb]

Re: charging employees for mistakes?? Legal?

I wasnt condoning stealing or anything like that, that was 15 years ago(making 10 bucks a hour, 19 years old) and I did leave where I was working because of things like taking money out of our checks when a inspection failed, we all know that inspectors can be a little difficult sometimes. When a person is living paycheck to paycheck and the boss takes money out your check without any notice for something that is out of your control you are going to be a little mad.

I am on the other side of the line now, I have never taken anything out of my employees checks. Alot of you guys are kidding yourselves thinking that one of your employees would not get his money back in one way or another(going home early, taking a long lunch etc..) if it was taken out for an honest mistake or a failed inspection that was not his fault.

I remember someone telling me that it's a federal law that you can't take money out of a persons check without proper notice.