BX as a ground.

[al hildenbrand]

Q. E. D.
Tapatalk

 

[peter d]

Mbrook, again your words are all opinion. Try some Code.

I've been using code all along in my arguments. The problem is not with my explanation or the other members who have opposed your point of view, the problem is that you refuse to believe it.

 

[peter d]

It goes both ways. You still have not told me how you perform a loop impedance test.


Personally I think up until this thread you did not know it was an issue and when confronted refuse to reconsider.

As I said earlier, it's easier to dig in one's heels than admit to a major mistake.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Peter D, your words offer your OPINION that you are using the Code, but you are not "quoting" the Code. I HAVE quoted the Code. Can you?

 

[peter d]

Peter D, your word offer your OPINION that you are using the Code, but you are not "quoting" the Code. I HAVE quoted the Code. Can you?

I'm not going to keep repeating my argument just because of your stubborn blindness. Others who responded to this thread have favored my position, so therefore I conclude there was no problem in my explanation. I have to conclude it is you who has the problem, not me.

Furthermore, quoting quotes that no longer apply is irrelevant to me. I don't follow ancient and out of date codes, but for some reason you feel compelled to muddy the waters by doing so.

 

[K8MHZ]

The old code clearly is lying then. The bonding strip was added for a reason, otherwise we would still have armored cable without bonding strips. If you would like to prove us wrong, first show us the reason why the bond strip was added...

How about this:

When the cable was shiny new, the armor had a low impedance back to the panel, so OK to use as an EGC. Aging effects changed that and weren't noticed for years. The bonding strip was then required to circumvent those aging effects.

 

[peter d]

How about this:

When the cable was shiny new, the armor had a low impedance back to the panel, so OK to use as an EGC. Aging effects changed that and weren't noticed for years. The bonding strip was then required to circumvent those aging effects.

Not exactly, the spirals themselves act like an inductor (aka a choke coil) when current is traveling on them, effectively raising the impedance of the armor (the fault path) to unacceptably high levels. The bonding wire shorts out each spiral, negating the inductive effect and creating a low impedance path on the armor.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I'm not going to keep repeating my argument just because of your stubborn blindness. Others who responded to this thread have favored my position, so therefore I conclude there was no problem in my explanation. I have to conclude it is you who has the problem, not me.

Furthermore, quoting quotes that no longer apply is irrelevant to me. I don't follow ancient and out of date codes, but for some reason you feel compelled to muddy the waters by doing so.

More opinion. I am not asking for your opinionated argument. I am asking you to actually quote Code.

 

[al hildenbrand]

This is a bump to the next page.

 

[peter d]

More opinion. I am not asking for your opinionated argument. I am asking you to actually quote Code.

I did. Repeatedly. But your blindness prevents you from seeing it.

Bottom line, your mind is not going to change and neither is mine. My hope is that anyone who reads this is not going to make the mistake that you do and rely on old BX cable as an EGC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

This is nearly century old Code. You are offering your opinion that the new construction standard of the 2014 NEC retroactively eliminated the grounding means that AC type BX cable has ALWAYS been. Show it in the text of the NEC.

1918 NEC
Class "C" -- Inside Work
All systems and voltages
General Rules
27. Armored Cables.
a. Must be continuous from outlet to outlet or to junction boxes or cabinets, and the armor of the cable must properly enter and be secured to all fittings, and the entire system must be mechanically secured in position.
In case of service connections and main runs, this involves running such armored cable continuously into a main cut-out cabinet or gutter surrounding the panel board, as the case may be.
b. Must be equipped at every outlet with an approved outlet box or plate, as required in conduit work.
Outlet plates must not be used where it is practicable to install outlet boxes.
For concealed work in walls and ceilings composed of plaster on wooden joist or stud construction, outlet boxes or plates and also cut-out cabinets must be so installed that the front edge will not be more than one-fourth inch back of the finished surface of the plaster, and if this surface is broken or incomplete it shall be repaired so that it will not show any gaps or open spaces around the edge of the outlet box or plate or of the cut-out cabinet. On wooden walls or ceilings, outlet boxes or plates and cut-out cabinets must be so installed that the front edge will either be flush with the finished surface or project there-from. This will not apply to concealed work in walls or ceilings composed of concrete, tile or other non-combustible material.
In buildings already constructed where the conditions are such that neither outlet box nor plate can be installed, these appliances may be omitted by special permission, provided the armored cable is firmly and rigidly secured in place.
At exposed ends of armored cable (except fixture outlets) where the wires pass from the armored cable system without splice, joint or tap an approved fitting having a separate bushed hole for each conductor must be used.
[i[c.[/i] Must have the metal armor of cables grounded as required in No. 15A.
d. . . .

1918 NEC
Class "C" -- Inside Work
All systems and voltages
General Rules
15A. Method of Grounding, When Protective Grounding is Required.
(What to ground see Nos. . . . 27c, . . . )
a. General Provisions.
Where low potential circuits are grounded under the following rules, circuits must be so arranged that under normal conditions of service there will be no appreciable passage of current over the ground conductor.
When arresters, equipment, wire raceways, etc. are grounded under the following rules, ground connections must be so disposed and underground piping systems so inter-connected, that there shall, under normal conditions, be no appreciable passage of current over the ground conductor.
Equipment and Wire Raceways.
i. For generators, motors, transformers, conduit, armored cable, metal raceways, etc., the point at which the ground conductor is attached must, if practicable, be readily accessible.
For conduit, armored cable or metal raceways the ground conductor must be as near as practicable to the point where the conductors in the conduit system concerned receive their supply.
When the service conduit is grounded, its ground conductor must be run direct from it to the ground connection. The interior conduit, armored cable or metal raceways, if well bonded to the service conduit, grounded as provided in this rule, need no additional connection.
n. If an armored cable system, a conduit system or a metal raceway system, consist of several separate sections, the sections must be bonded to each other, and the system grounded, or each section may be separately grounded.
The armor of conduits, cables , metal raceways and gas pipes must either be securely fastened in outlet boxes, junction boxes and cabinets, so as to secure good electrical connection, or the separate sections, boxes and cabinets must be separately grounded.
. . .

 

[peter d]

This is nearly century old Code. You are offering your opinion that the new construction standard of the 2014 NEC retroactively eliminated the grounding means that AC type BX cable has ALWAYS been. Show it in the text of the NEC.

BX without a bonding strip is not a recognized EGC in the 2014 NEC. I can't show something that is not there. It's just that simple. For some reason, you are being intentionally dense about this and I suspect it's intentional disbelief on your part and/or an unwillingness to admit you're wrong.

But perhaps if I say it again, you'll understand (doubtful but I'll try.) 2014 rules apply to any extension or modification of existing BX cable made in the year 2016. The 1918 doesn't apply, the 195x doesn't apply and neither does any code other than the current one adopted into law.

 

[K8MHZ]

I predict this subject will eventually go down the rabbit hole and end up on the verboten to discuss list along with the up vs. down ground pin location.

 

[al hildenbrand]

BX without a bonding strip is not a recognized EGC in the 2014 NEC. I can't show something that is not there. It's just that simple.

There! That wasn't so hard. The Code is SILENT on the matter.

 

[K8MHZ]

FWIW, I agree with Peter.

If left as is, it's OK. Add something to it and now it's not. That's how I read the rules. Better safe than sorry, BX extensions get a GFCI.

 

[iwire]

FWIW, I agree with Peter.

If left as is, it's OK. Add something to it and now it's not. That's how I read the rules. Better safe than sorry, BX extensions get a GFCI.

I also agree with that.

 

[peter d]

There! That wasn't so hard. The Code is SILENT on the matter.

For my own satisfaction, could you explain why you're being intentionally dense about this?

 

[al hildenbrand]

2014 rules apply to any extension or modification of existing BX cable made in the year 2016. The 1918 doesn't apply, the 195x doesn't apply and neither does any code other than the current one adopted into law.

Again, pull back to receptacle replacement. I am not advocating new circuit extensions with AC type BX manufactured before the Fifties Code change. Remember the OP question, please.

250.130(C) has been quoted as the lynch pin, but it is for receptacle replacement on an existing ungrounded wiring methods, so that dog don't hunt. AC type BX IS a grounded wiring method.

 

[peter d]

Again, pull back to receptacle replacement. I am not advocating new circuit extensions with AC type BX manufactured before the Fifties Code change. Remember the OP question, please.

250.130(C) has been quoted as the lynch pin, but it is for receptacle replacement on an existing ungrounded wiring methods, so that dog don't hunt. AC type BX IS a grounded wiring method.

You're just being a troll now, I'm sorry I got sucked in for so long. I'm done, the rest of you can argue this one out.

 

[Curious nerd]

Being i live in the land time forgot, older wiring is part of my daily service call diet. At the time they didn't know what to do with it due to non grounding metal boxes and devices. This is the era where they either cut them off, or employed the famous Boston Back wrap termination method. ~RJ~

I volunteer to be the dumb one. What is "Boston Back wrap"?