Business 101

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willyj

Member
Myself and I'm sure others would like to hear from other electrical contractors about their successes, failures, startups, and goals also financing and business management.
I know from experience that there are stories from all over to tell, some good some bad.
As it is told 4 out of 5 businesses will fail in the first 5 years of startup.
Mayhaps this thread can help some avoid that pitfall.
Bill
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
Re: Business 101

I would avoid financing a start-up. The first years are hard enough with out having to pay back a large sum with juice.

Sometimes a week business can pay it's bills and the owner. The trouble is the owner is taking financial risks, legal risks, may have little personal insurance or retirement, may be working twice the hours, waives a number worker rights like unemployment and maybe workers comp. The owners tools, equipment, and trucks may be used, worn out, broken, lost, or abused by others.

I am guessing what happens to some smaller companies is the owner calls it quits because working for someone else can have more benefits and the pay could be the same or better.

Before you own a business it is had to understand the volume of cash flow and work it takes to stay open let alone come out with a profit. The hours involved or the personal life impact may not be realized. You may also realize you have to do more selling, paperwork, estimates, scheduling, call taking, and personal management than expected. You may also find your weaker areas. It is hard for one person to wear many different hats and be good at all of them. I think the other misconception is the "build it and they will come" idea. Just because you have a few customers, contacts, a phone book ad, and a sign on the truck does not mean you phone will ring.

Market research would not hurt before starting up. How much $$ are other EC getting? Is that a number you can make a profit with? How busy are they? How may others are in your phone book. There is about 130 EC in my book.

Something else to realize is starting out you probably building up your inventory which costs $$. You have all kinds of tools & equipment you need to do the jobs.

I the end you wish someone would make an offer so you could break even.

Tom
 

coppertreeelectric

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

Like Tom just said avoid financing. Start small and don?t push to grow to fast. The more you grow the bigger the overhead, so don?t over extend yourself. Do as much as you can without paying an employee. When I became a Sr. Mechanic working for a large company I was pushed to do the most I could without a helper. The first job I did as a Sr. Mech was a 6000Sq Ft Dollar store in a strip mall. I completed the entire job without any help from another electrician, from the 400amp service to the 120 8? florescent fixtures I had to install. I learned really quick not to rely on other people, so when you first start out push your self to do the work alone, when you need an extra set of hands for a day hire a friend or family member. Its 100% profit.

Don?t burn your bridges. As a business you have a reputation to maintain. You will quickly be labeled as good to do business with and just as quickly be shut out due to one mistake. If you say you will be there or that you will call them back, make sure you do. It?s a competitive market with plenty of other EC?s ready to work.

I started my business 4 yrs ago with a 1986 Astro Van that I paid $600 for. All I had was my hand tools and a cordless drill. For the first year I bought a new tool with every job I did. The first time I needed to drill a 3? hole in concrete I used money from that job to by a $500 Hilti Hammer drill and a 3-1/2? Core bit. I must use that drill once a week now.
It wasn?t long before I bout a new van and hired a helper. After 1-1/2 years in business my helper became my junior mech and I bought another truck for him. Now four years from the start I run 5 trucks and have 6 construction electricians and 1 service call electrician. I spend my day between job sites and service calls and still very much get my hands dirty.

My point is to just stay small while you can and enjoy it. Through all the headaches, long hours, sweet and tears I wouldn?t pass it up for the world. After all I don?t have anyone to answer to except myself (really my wife, she signs the checks)

Stay focused and don?t lose site of why you went into business in the first place.

Best of luck to all.
Steve
 

Chong

Member
Re: Business 101

I have had very bad luck with working for building contractors.
1) They delayed paying me as long as they possibly could.
2) One got me $2000.00 in the hole and kept telling me that he would pay me with the money he was going to make from the "next" job that I did for him. I got smart one day and told him that I would never work for him again, and not to ever call me again.
The day I stopped working for building contractors or "middle men" as I like to call them, I think I got rid of about 90% of the stress in my life. If I cant work directly with the homeowner or building owner then I don't do the job. I let someone else put up with all the B.S. that I have found goes with trying to work for a building contractor. However, I'm sure there are hundreds of other electrical contractors who are millionaires from working for building contractors. It just wasnt for me.
 

coppertreeelectric

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

I have had very bad luck with working for building contractors.
80% of my work is for builders. I have had a few bumps with GC's but for the most part thats where most of my big jobs come from. Learn to budget and don't count on money thats not in your hand and you should do fine. Have a contract. Make sure to receive 50% up front from builders before you even schedule to do work for them. Be smart and you shouldn't have many problems.
 

chrsb

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

All of my work is for GC's(commercial) and have had no problems getting paid. One of my GC's pays every 30 days, the other pays every 15 days. Where I am at it is not uncommon for some GC's to pay 60-90 days, you just have to find the ones that pay. I do work for one GC that was working for a major retailer that went BK, even though he didn't have to pay anybody, he paid all the subs(there was a few million worth of work being done). You don't find many people like that, so when they ask for something to be done you do it and never worry about getting paid.

[ March 25, 2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: chrsb ]
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

Some good advice so far, seeing as how I agree with what the others have said. :)

Here's my $0.02:

It's tough getting started, and getting the phone to ring is one of the biggest challenges. What I've found is that it's important to hit the marketing from lots of different angles. I've gotten clients from newspaper ads, Internet postings, referrals from satisfied customers, referrals from friends, and even a few from sources I haven't been able to ascertain.

Image is important if you want to have a successful business. You want to convey the impression that you know what you are doing and have your ducks in a row. That means your truck/van is in good shape. The sign on your truck looks professional. You dress the part. And don't give anyone the impression that you're not at least halfway busy. Even if you have no work, if a call comes in, tell them you can come out in a few days at the earliest. Plenty of people have told me that they wouldn't hire someone if they were too available, as that makes them suspicious that they aren't worth hiring. By the same token, don't charge rock-bottom prices. If you don't value your work, why would others? And even if you are busy, answer the phone and return calls promptly. Lots of people tell me they hate it when contractors blow them off.

Keep overhead as low as you can without skimping on the essentials. I use the same vehicle for work as I do when I'm off duty, and I work out of my house. I don't have any employees to pay. I only buy tools as I need them, but when I do, I buy the best ones I can. Cheap tools are a false economy.

Stay on top of the paperwork. Get a good lawyer and accountant. Feel free to do favors for them; it's worth it. My lawyer and I do favors for each other all the time. She's got my back, and her lights still work. :)

Remember that running your own business is a lot of work. Be prepared for long hours and sacrifice. It's much more work than being an employee in most cases.

Most important of all, though, is integrity. You've gotta be honest with people and treat them the way you'd like to be treated. I've had situations where I talked potential clients out of having work done because I thought it would be a waste of their money, thus losing a potential job for myself. What they remember is how I was honest with them. This week one such person called me with an emergency job, and I bet he calls me again when he needs work done on the house he's moving into this weekend.

[ March 25, 2005, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 

chrsb

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

I forgot in my last post to give some things to do. First I will give a little background on myself. My partner and I have been in business for 2 years now, previously I was a GF for a electrical contractor.

1. Get an accountant, he will keep you in check, there are alot of misnomers out there on what you can and can not write off. Plus they will keep you out of trouble if they do there job right (expense forecasting etc...)

2. Pay yourself first (my partner and I disagree on this) Let the company go into debt, not you. I know it may be hard in the beginning but you should try to always pay yourself, then if need be loan the money back to the company.

3. Don't sell yourself short (We also disagree on this too) Don't do work just to do it, do it to make money. I have heard people say "I can't lose money if I do it myself" That is true, but in the long run, after many hours of missing your family it will get old. I know times are tough out there for alot of people, and there are alot of "good deals" for people but remember there is always someone out there that will do it cheaper than you.
I do all the estimating for the company and some of the numbers lately have been awful. I have seen bids range from 36k-120k for the same job. I was 61k and all I could say was let them do it, I can't afford to do it any cheaper. It will make you think you are doing something wrong with your estimating, just remember to give a responsible bid and don't look back, don't chase jobs (we did one last year we chased and lost a few k on it).

Well I rambled on enough, I have been in this business for 17 years now and have seen some well established companies go under. I talked to the owner of one that went BK at his auction, he told me to stay 6-10 men and don't become a bank. That is why he went under, got tired of turning in 500k bills and getting 20k, find the GC's that pay and take care of them
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Re: Business 101

Originally posted by jeff43222:


Most important of all, though, is integrity. You've gotta be honest with people and treat them the way you'd like to be treated.
I totally agree with the above statement!

I had another EC tell me one time that the secret to staying in business is to not take a job that you can't afford to not be paid for.
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:
I had another EC tell me one time that the secret to staying in business is to not take a job that you can't afford to not be paid for.
Very good advice. I've been stiffed on a couple of small jobs, but I didn't lose much. On any job I can't afford to not be paid for, I get money up front, and we sign a contract with a very clear payment schedule before I start any work.

[ March 25, 2005, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 

bigjohn67

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

I think that one of the biggest mistakes of someone starting up a business it that their "side work" will turn to regular customers.
You have have charged only $45 per hr but then with the cost of being in business causes you to raise your rates within scope of your competitors, say $75.00.
Guess what, your customers will look for some just like you were at $45.00 per hour and does it on the side at this price just as you did before going into business.

Don't sell yourself short when you first start out, even as sidework. Protect the trade for the technical aspect and knowledge that is required.

Most importantly, do not get a business partner.

[ March 26, 2005, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
 

sparkster

Member
Re: Business 101

One thing I have been guilty of is throwing an time frame on a job and then jumping into the work ,having quoted an hourly price and materials quote, the customer hasnt done the math on one week, two journeymen, that the $ 55.00 per hour is now $ 4400.00 and even though it was talked about they go wow that is more than I expected, after they have said oh yea can you do this and that while you are here, get a signature, set them down be a salesman, explain what you are going to do and what it will be in the end. I have had a few go weak in the knee then, better then than after you have 3000 in the job and have paid two jouneymen's wages and th ework comp and they have your product they want to make payments, why do they have you come and do work and not be ready to pay?

Anyway, explain, get a signature, be profesional,dont let employees do everything, bid everything yourself. I am enyoying being in business but some days I would sell it for a dollar.
 

willyj

Member
Re: Business 101

Business ownership can be a rewarding endeavor.
Through the years I have seen more businesses fail than succeed and the reason is poor management.
You must start off small and gradually build up your clientele.
Couple with someone you can trust, wife, best friend, parent to help you with the paperwork which believe me will be more than you can imagine.
As your customer base and reputation (which is one of the most important sections of business)starts to grow in 2 or 3 years increase your advertising with full to half page ads in the yellow pages and radio advertising.
It will seem like it is taking forever for your business to grow but in reality it is a very short time.
As you grow your circle of trusted people will increase with an attorney and CPA also a good financial planner is needed.
Make sure you grow your credit and keep it clean. There is nothing worse for a business than to have a bad rating in the D&B Report.
As you grow there will be some weeks you will not get paid because of employee and vendor obligations.
Inspectors can be your best friend or your worst enemy try to get along with them all and your business will run much smoother.
It is very difficult to be an electrician and a successful business man. As time goes on you will have to take yourself out of the field and into the office. This is when those trusted people will become most important.
If you need advice ask most electrical contractors are willing to share.
Our company started small and eventually through long nights hard work and a wonderful wife who is my partner our business has grown 100% in the last 3 years.
It is still a struggle sometimes and saving cans and bottles for the nickle deposit is tempting but this business is worth every success and heart break.
There will always be someone to undercut you so the better your reputation the better your success.
Bill
August Electric LLC
Massachusetts
 

willyj

Member
Re: Business 101

A few things I forgot to mention. Make sure you are operating legally. Get a FID # and register with your state, town ,or community.
A partner is ok as long as you marry them.
Pay your taxes on time there is nothing worse than the wrath of the IRS.
Bill
 

tx2step

Senior Member
Re: Business 101

I posted this reply earlier to a fairly obscure topic, so probably few saw it. The guy was considering moving from residential to commercial work. I am posting it again here, as this seems the most appropriate topic. I hope it helps someone. I'm sorry it is kind of long, but I'm trying to cover a lot of the basics, and save someone from some big losses.

3/23/05 ? reply posted to Topic title - "Dabbling into other parts of the market":

Getting into commercial work can be a big step, depending on what kind of work that you do and how large it is. It can become a giant game of "chess" where actually doing the electrical work is only a small part of the time and effort that you eventually devote to a particular project.

The business aspect of it is at least as important as being able to perform the actual electrical work. I've seen many good commercial electricians try their hand at being an electrical contractor, and fail. It was almost always because they thought that is was enough to just be able to install the electrical work. In truth, that is only one part of what is required to be a successful commercial electrical contractor.

To start with, the estimating and bidding technique is much more involved.

You should first do a detailed review of the complete plans and specs to determine exactly what your scope of work will be -- and sometimes that scope or work can hinge on just a few key words.

Generally, in the event of a conflict in requirements, the specs will overrule the plans. In the real world, this is usually backwards -- the plans are usually drawn for the specific project, but the specs are often "canned" and will have stuff in them that shouldn't apply or that contradict the plans. Be sure you understand the hierarchy of how conflicts in "requirements" are decided.

Be sure and look at the architectural and mechanical drawings and specs, too, since they sometimes have electrical stuff shown there. Also read the "General Conditions" (Division 1) of the Specs, as this will set many of the ground rules for the project, and will directly affect you.

The estimate will be a detailed bill of material of everything that is required to install the project. Then labor units are applied to that bill of material to determine the "book labor" (i.e. the man-hours) that normal conditions will take for the installation. That book labor is then factored up or down to adjust for specific job conditions (like a compressed work schedule, etc.).

If you miss some of the materials required, you miss both the cost of the materials and the corresponding labor hours in your estimate. But you have to furnish them anyway.

You have to look at the total estimated man-hours compared to the time frame that you will have to perform the work within to see what the man loading will have to be. I've seen a lot of small contractors just look at the plans and say "I can do this work in this many days". They were almost always wrong, and underestimate how long it would take them.

Unless they have direct experience at it, no commercial/industrial electricians are qualified to put together a bid. That is a very specialized skill.

Are there some large commercial electrical contractors in your area? One of their estimators might be willing to do estimates on the side for you if it doesn't conflict with the work his company does. Also, a lot of retired estimators do small estimates and bids after they retire. Find one and get him to teach you the ropes. You'll find that it's much easier to find qualified commercial electricians than it is qualified estimators.

There are some quality estimating services available. They will cost less than a bad bid will cost you.

It's not unusual for a GC to try to tell you how much the electrical work should run on a particular project. They will tell you that you should be able to do the work for $X and make money at it. Never fall for this. If you don't know pretty accurately how much it should cost you to do a particular project, then back away from it. The odds are the GC will bait you (they learn to read when a sub doesn't know what they are doing).

Timely payment is often a problem. You are usually only paid monthly, and retainage (typically 10%) is usually withheld. Work that you do in March will be billed around the end of the month. You will usually be paid around the end of the next month (in this example the end of April). That is if you and the GC are getting along -- they can/will use your payments as leverage against you.

I've seen EC's be 3 months into their work before they ever get paid anything. On some small jobs, their work is finished before they are ever paid anything. Make sure that you have the capitol to handle that type of cash flow (or lack thereof).

Contract language, provisions and requirements can differ widely and can kill you. Most GC's use their own standard contract -- guess whose favor that is written in (hint, it ain't in your favor). Use a standard AIA or AGC subcontract if you can. Those are reasonably balanced. The AIA form is probably the most evenhanded. I recommend that you qualify in your bid that your price is based on the use of a standard AIA subcontract. If you don't know how to read and understand contract language, then go over the contract with an attorney that is experienced in construction law and litigation. Construction law is a very specialized field, and an expert in it is worth his weight in gold -- a general purpose attorney will get you into trouble.

Be sure that the scope of work that was in your bid actually ends up in your contract. The GC will typically write your scope such that you will do all of the electrical work required on the project. This contract language will supercede your "bid" scope of work. If you sign a contract like that, you will be responsible for all of the electrical work on the project, whether it was in your bid or not.

Be sure and look for insurance requirements (Owners and GC's often require that you carry them as an "Additional Insured" on their policy.) They often also have a clause in their contract that makes you responsible for their mistakes and negligence as well as for your own. In many states, this clause is legal and will stand up in court. Review insurance requirements with a good insurance agent that is a specialist in construction work. A general purpose agent will get you into trouble.

A good Commercial General Liability policy is essential. If someone gets hurt or something gets damaged and you are named in the lawsuit, your insurance company will have to pay for your legal defense. Without liability coverage, you will have to pay for your own legal defense. You can be included in a suit and have to defend yourself, even if you did absolutely nothing wrong. You will have to pay for the legal costs just to prove that you shouldn't be a party to the suit.

Be sure and verify that someone is providing "Builders Risk" insurance coverage, and that you are an "Additional Insured" on that policy. Builder's Risk is what pays to have a job rebuilt that is 90% complete when a tornado blows it away or a fire burns it down. Otherwise, you can be obligated to do your work over again without any additional payment.

Find out if the GC is providing a "Payment Bond" to the Owner. Is it a partial bond or a 100% bond? Make sure that you clearly understand everything that you must do to obtain payment protection under that bond. Simply not providing a timely written notice to the bonding company when it is required will cost you payment protection under the bond. To keep bond protections in place you must do everything precisely as prescribed by law -- ignorance of the requirements will not help you collect. Bond protection detailed procedures vary from state to state, so know the rules in the state you are working in.

Also be sure that you understand the lien laws in your state as they apply to commercial construction. If you miss a filing deadline - too bad! If you don't file the proper documents in the proper form - too bad.

Be sure and clarify if you do or do not have temporary power and lighting included in your contract. This can cost a bundle.

Be sure and look for specified performance time frames and "Liquidated Damages". Remember that the EC performs most of his work in the last half (or less) of the building process (and schedule), and you and the painter are always the last guys on the job. Slow progress at the start of the job will mean you are working under a compressed time schedule to make the deadline -- that may well mean multiple shifts and/or overtime (at your own expense) or you'll pay big "LD's".

Don't do any changes on a verbal agreement -- if you do, you'll end up donating that work. Get it in writing first before you do it (at an agreed price, with extra time added to you contract time).


Watch for a trash, site and building cleanup sharing clause. It isn't unusual for the GC to split up all of his building and site cleanup costs and dump fees between all of the subs, even if you took care of all of your own trash.

Good documentation will eventually make or break you. Learn to be good at paperwork or stick to small stuff.

Make sure that the owner is solvent and has the money to pay for the project. They can go bust leaving you with an unpaid billing.

Make very sure that you thoroughly check out a GC (especially if they're from out of state). Do they have a reputation for slow pay or no pay? I've seen many small electrical contractors go under from underhanded GCs that give them work, pay them just a little, string them along, and end up paying just part of their contract amount. Usually, the small EC goes bust because he doesn't have the money to pay the legal costs to collect. Lack of capitol usually puts them under before the GC has to worry about them.

Some of these things may not apply to small work with people that you know. But if you get into any larger work with GC's that you don't know, all of them will eventually matter and other things that I haven't thought to mention, too.

My advice to a number of small contractors has always been -- don't risk more than you can afford to lose. Never take on a single project that could bankrupt you if it goes badly or if you don't get paid.

Also, consider how this project will affect your ability to do other work for clients that you already have. Don't overload yourself to the extent that you lose the business that paid for your current success.

Stick with small projects until you learn the ropes. Don't try to grow too fast. Don't take on too large of a single project - one that can break you if it goes wrong. Often it goes wrong for reasons that are completely out of your control. You can do good work and the project still turn sour. Limit your risk to what you can afford to lose without going broke.

The main problem areas aren't new, just bigger and more complex:
1. Is your price high enough to actually do the work that is in your scope of work?
2. Will you get paid? How fast, how often, or ever? Do you have the cash set aside and available to cash-flow (i.e. bankroll) the project if your payments are delayed or withheld? Borrowing money to do it is very risky.
3. Do you understand your contract requirements and provisions and do you agree with all of them?
4. Will your scope of work remain what you intended and planned for, or will there be more work added that you didn't anticipate and that you'll have to perform without any additional money? Remember that if the GC is obligated to include some electrical work that isn't included in your bid, they will try to force you to do it. If it's a choice between their pocket or yours, it will be yours.
5. If things go bad, what recourses do you have? Are those recourses practical, or will they cost you more money than you stand to collect? Attorneys cost a lot of money and don't usually take on construction suits on a contingency basis, so you're paying by the hour. If you win, you may still not recover all of your legal costs.
6. Are you inadvertently taking on liabilities that you didn't recognize and never anticipated?
7. Are you technically qualified to do the work involved? Do you have enough experience and knowledge?
8. Do you have the manpower, tools and equipment and other resources required to perform the work in the time-frame required without holding up job progress?

No answers to any of these questions are big red flags.

Nine times out of ten, everything will go OK -- pretty much as you planned. But sooner or later, the tenth one will arrive and you will bite a sour project. If you plan ahead and are prepared, you'll probably survive it. If you're too trusting and just assume everyone will treat you honestly and with honor and will always tell you the truth -- prepare to have your pocket picked.

Are you performing as a sole proprietor or are you performing as a corporation or other legal entity that will shield you personally from big liabilities? Be sure that you understand all of the pros and cons of each form of business entity, including their different tax structures.

Sorry if I rambled a bit here, but there is a lot to learn about commercial/industrial/governmental/military construction in general, and the associated electrical work in particular.

Also remember that if a job looks too good to be true, then it's probably not true. Fish are caught every day with nice smelling (to them) bait. GC's are not in business to knowingly give you high profit jobs -- they plan to keep as much of the money as they can (sometimes including yours, if you let them).

I'm not trying to scare you away from doing commercial work -- it's good work and there is money to be made there. But there is usually a lot of competition, so it's no gold mine. I'm just trying to forewarn you about some of the traps and pitfalls to watch out for -- forewarned is forearmed!

Posted on 3/29/05:
For those that aren't familiar with "Builders Risk" insurance (I mentioned and described it above) -- A normal policy will also cover on-site vandalism repairs, on-site stored materials that are stolen or damaged, and in-transit materials that are lost or damaged. It will NOT cover your lost or damaged tools or equipment -- for that, you will need an "equipment floater" policy.

The cost of a Builders Risk policy is small -- For a $300,000 building (the electrical would probably be about $30,000 to $50,000 of that), it would cost the Owner or the GC about $500 (a one-time premium) to take out a policy that would cover a year-long construction schedule. Everyone, including all of the subs, would be covered by the policy as long as all of them were listed as "Additional Insured" by whoever (Owner or GC) took out the policy initially (you can also be added after the fact if you got left out).

To make sure that you are covered by a policy, get a standard "ACORD" "Certificate of Insurance" directly from the insurance agent that issued the policy (not from the Owner or the GC). The Certificate should come directly from the Agent to you. It should be an original certificate. It should show that you are an "Additional Insured" on the policy, and should name the Project. It will have the name of the insurer (i.e. the insurance carrier) and the policy number. Look up the insurer on the "A.M. Best" website to verify their financial rating and that they are a real company. Since you are an "Additional Insured" you can even get verification directly from the insurance carrier that the policy is real (fake documents do happen).

If anyone finds this useful, I can post more stuff later, like things to watch for in subcontracts, clauses and terms that you should make certain are in your subcontracts, estimating tips, etc.
 
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