Ballast bypass

K

Krusscher

Senior Member
Location
Washington State
Occupation
Electrician
I am looking into retro fitting 23 2 lamp fixtures and have come across some concerns with doing this on previous post. They will be fed on both ends so shunted tombstones aren't an issue but what about the tombstones not being rated for being directly connected to a branch circuit instead of a ballast? Do I need to fuse each fixture to get around the tombstones not being rated for direct connection? Also does anyone have experience with inspectors giving them grief about not replacing the yellow wires going to the existing tomb stones that are now connected to the grounded conductor?

As a bonus question, I just replaced a CFL with a ballast bypass led and it came with a pretty large sticker saying it was modified. I put the sticker on the inside of the can trim but I feel like it takes away quite a bit of light as the inside of the trim is reflective but the sticker is not. Does the sticker need to go in the trim or can it be anywhere on the fixture?
 
T

tthh

Senior Member
Location
Denver
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Also currently replacing a bunch of 48" tubes with Type B. Just make sure you order a number of spare tubes. In a year you won't be able to get the tube you ordered any longer and the easiest thing is a spare and not having to match it to the latest version.
 
K

Krusscher

Senior Member
Location
Washington State
Occupation
Electrician
hillbilly1 said:
Most tombstones are rated for at least 600 volts. The fluorescent lamps operate at around 450 volts, if I remember correctly. Not a problem.
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What about on a 20 amp circuit? if something were to happen in the lamp and it shorts could that be an issue that I need to consider?
 
K

Krusscher

Senior Member
Location
Washington State
Occupation
Electrician
hillbilly1 said:
What about the ballast wire? It is the same size, and you are not required to fuse it. Ballasts short out all the time. You are overthinking it.
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IMHO ballast wire is different then the little connection a lamp has with a tombstone and what happens to it in a fault situation, but if no one seems to have had an issue with it I suppose I am overthinking this.
 
S

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Krusscher said:
IMHO ballast wire is different then the little connection a lamp has with a tombstone and what happens to it in a fault situation, but if no one seems to have had an issue with it I suppose I am overthinking this.
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My opinion is, follow the retrofit manufacturers instructions. If you do that, then once the retrofit kits ends in a wire nut, and everything is done per the instruction, the inspector's purview is done.
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I have done a lot of conversions. My only concern is that a layman may insert a tube in the line end, while having fingers on the neutral pins. No amount of instruction will reach everyone and this could be a hazard if grounded and light on. I always mark line and neutral on the belly pan and inside. But time will tell.

Very first conversions I did, only single end feeds were available, so I had to order nonshunted sockets and replace them. Disonnected sockets on other end, they were just to hold the tube. Someone may have to rework those one day. I told a fellow tech about it who came to help me and he hadn't heard of nonshunted sockets. Issue had never really come up for many people.
 
K

Krusscher

Senior Member
Location
Washington State
Occupation
Electrician
jmellc said:
I have done a lot of conversions. My only concern is that a layman may insert a tube in the line end, while having fingers on the neutral pins. No amount of instruction will reach everyone and this could be a hazard if grounded and light on. I always mark line and neutral on the belly pan and inside. But time will tell.

Very first conversions I did, only single end feeds were available, so I had to order nonshunted sockets and replace them. Disonnected sockets on other end, they were just to hold the tube. Someone may have to rework those one day. I told a fellow tech about it who came to help me and he hadn't heard of nonshunted sockets. Issue had never really come up for many people.
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First one I did I didnt realize they were shunted and it was a one ender. Couldn't figure out why the breaker kept tripping til my master informed me lol. Was able to take the tombstones apart and remove the shunt pretty easily without having to buy new ones and re wire it.
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Krusscher said:
First one I did I didnt realize they were shunted and it was a one ender. Couldn't figure out why the breaker kept tripping til my master informed me lol. Was able to take the tombstones apart and remove the shunt pretty easily without having to buy new ones and re wire it.
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I never tried to take one apart.
 
K

Krusscher

Senior Member
Location
Washington State
Occupation
Electrician
jmellc said:
I never tried to take one apart.
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They probably aren't all the same but on those particular ones they had a removable back that I pried of with a small flathead and shunt was just a small copper bar, can't remember how it was held in there though but it was pretty easy to remove.
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Krusscher said:
They probably aren't all the same but on those particular ones they had a removable back that I pried of with a small flathead and shunt was just a small copper bar, can't remember how it was held in there though but it was pretty easy to remove.
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Surprised the socket held up to being opened up and closed back. They aren't very well made for the most part.
 
Flicker Index

Flicker Index

Senior Member
Location
Pac NW
Occupation
Lights
Well, 277v into a bi-pin socket is basically a wimpy receptacle attached to a tin can connected to a high available fault current source with a short length of 18AWGs. Though rare, there are some obscure 4' instant start lamps with internally shunted bi-pins, so it will be like putting a hairpin across 277v. I'm guessing the tube will blow up on one of the ends.
 
M

macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Too many times the tube is seemingly too long to fit without wrestling it in to the sockets. I'm pretty sure most know what I am talking about, it also makes it pretty difficult to remove a tube out when the tombstone ends are slightly too close together and they squeeze the tube at the ends.
Now add the fact that most times the led upgrade has already been done and there is a led tube in there now, with 120 volts applied to the tube. Which end is the energized or the (hot) wire ? I've never seen it identified once yet which tombstone is the hot bugger. So I use my volt tick on the tombstones , but sometimes they both make that tool ring and light up. So yeah I know, we're not supposed to change lamps with the lights on but the mandatory disconnecting pull apart thing is inside the old ballast tray which you have to remove the lamps first to get to. Pretty easy to have the chance of shorting the tube to the ground.
And maybe you are in a long hallway and there is no other lighting but the ones you are changing lamps for. So what to do, turn off all lights and risk some employee walking out a door into a totally dark hallway while you fix a lamp?
Things like this are why I still purchase t-8 ballasts for an extra 15 bucks and get the LED tubes that require a t-8 ballast. It's safer for the next guy, who incidentally may have zero experience in electrical theory and safety practices. Direct wired LED tube are a bummer in my book. Unsafe. In all but a few instances where turning off the entire bank of lights is no problem. Almost never in the real world though.
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
macmikeman said:
Too many times the tube is seemingly too long to fit without wrestling it in to the sockets. I'm pretty sure most know what I am talking about, it also makes it pretty difficult to remove a tube out when the tombstone ends are slightly too close together and they squeeze the tube at the ends.
Now add the fact that most times the led upgrade has already been done and there is a led tube in there now, with 120 volts applied to the tube. Which end is the energized or the (hot) wire ? I've never seen it identified once yet which tombstone is the hot bugger. So I use my volt tick on the tombstones , but sometimes they both make that tool ring and light up. So yeah I know, we're not supposed to change lamps with the lights on but the mandatory disconnecting pull apart thing is inside the old ballast tray which you have to remove the lamps first to get to. Pretty easy to have the chance of shorting the tube to the ground.
And maybe you are in a long hallway and there is no other lighting but the ones you are changing lamps for. So what to do, turn off all lights and risk some employee walking out a door into a totally dark hallway while you fix a lamp?
Things like this are why I still purchase t-8 ballasts for an extra 15 bucks and get the LED tubes that require a t-8 ballast. It's safer for the next guy, who incidentally may have zero experience in electrical theory and safety practices. Direct wired LED tube are a bummer in my book. Unsafe. In all but a few instances where turning off the entire bank of lights is no problem. Almost never in the real world though.
Click to expand...
I always mark L and N when I do these, and use the stickers that come with lamps. If stickers have been lost, I write “LED ONLY” on belly pan. Sadly, not everyone does this. There will be some issues, I am sure. Hopefully I will be retired by then & not have it to worry over.

Yes, the fit of the sockets can be a huge issue. They were often poorly made and poorly installed from day 1. Just removing the belly pan can make some fly out. I wish all sockets were spring loaded single pin & all tubes to match.
 
T

tthh

Senior Member
Location
Denver
Occupation
Retired Engineer
The Type B tubes all come with stickers to put somewhere on the fixture. I get that Type B conversion is a possible hazard for someone not clued into the wild west of LED lighting coming later. But, why keep using ballasts? It just defeats the purpose of reducing things to maintain.
 
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