Bad Manufacturing Process???

[TheGingerElectrician]

We recently installed a sauna heater unit a customer purchased and installed the circuit correctly but when turning the unit on it shorted inside the unit. After investigation and further contact with the manufacturer, they informed us we missed a step in the installation instructions. The instructions said to remove the temperature probe which they install at the manufacturer because it can cause a short against the unit when first kicked on in certain circumstances. They will not warranty the unit because we missed this step.

In order to make things right with the customer, we have already ordered and paid for a brand-new unit. I was tempted to cancel the card after we get the unit but I know it wouldn't be ethical. Should I calm down or am I right in being upset with the manufacturer? This will of course induce a meeting with everyone stating the importance of reading the instructions.

1. I know they have us on a technicality because it is in their instructions and we should have read the instructions and caught it.
2. From my perspective this is bad practice from the manufacturer because they are sending a unit with items they installed in the unit that can cause a short even if you do everything correctly. It really feels from my perspective that they are just trying to save money in their process and pass the liability of a bad practice onto the installer.
3. Any suggestions on how to handle this with technicians who are made aware of this and don't follow the right course in reading through the instructions?

Any ideas or helpful thoughts/conversation or advise on this?

 

[zbang]

IMHO, it's definitely bad practice for the mfg to ship something where this sort of thing could happen.

If nothing else, I'd simply refuse to buy or install these heaters in the future. You can even, truthfully, say that you've seen them fail on startup.

 

[petersonra]

I don't see how it is the manufacturers fault that the installer did not bother to read the instructions.

We sometimes put big tags on equipment to point out things that are important that people who refuse to read the instructions might miss. For instance, we used to do some work that needed seals because the equipment was going into a classified area. We would install the seal fitting(s) but not pour them. We would supply the material required loose as part of the shipment and put a big tag on the seal noting it needed to be filled in the field.

It seems to me if this is just a matter of removing the probe and shipping it loose, the manufacturer should maybe do that. Unfortunately, then there will be some installers who will throw the probe out because they don't read the instructions that tell them to install it. Then the installers will whine that the manufacturer should have installed it at the factory.

 

[hbiss]

This is like buying a new lawnmower. They have a big red tag on the engine telling you to fill it with oil before starting. You can't miss it. So, the question is, is the requirement for removing the probe prominently displayed? Is there a yellow or red label on the unit? Or is it something contained in the text of the installation instructions that can be overlooked? If the latter, I would say that the manufacturer should be responsible. It's something that could destroy their product that they are fully aware of, and it's their responsibility to make sure that the customer/installer can't miss it.

-Hal

 

[TheGingerElectrician]

This is like buying a new lawnmower. They have a big red tag on the engine telling you to fill it with oil before starting. You can't miss it. So, the question is, is the requirement for removing the probe prominently displayed? Is there a yellow or red label on the unit? Or is it something contained in the text of the installation instructions that can be overlooked? If the latter, I would say that the manufacturer should be responsible. It's something that could destroy their product that they are fully aware of, and it's their responsibility to make sure that the customer/installer can't miss it.

-Hal

There was only instruction within the installation portion of the manual that was easily missed. There were no red tags, labels, ect...

 

[TheGingerElectrician]

This is like buying a new lawnmower. They have a big red tag on the engine telling you to fill it with oil before starting. You can't miss it. So, the question is, is the requirement for removing the probe prominently displayed? Is there a yellow or red label on the unit? Or is it something contained in the text of the installation instructions that can be overlooked? If the latter, I would say that the manufacturer should be responsible. It's something that could destroy their product that they are fully aware of, and it's their responsibility to make sure that the customer/installer can't miss it.

-Hal

There was only instruction within the installation portion of the manual that was easily missed. There were no red tags, labels, ect...

I don't see how it is the manufacturers fault that the installer did not bother to read the instructions.

We sometimes put big tags on equipment to point out things that are important that people who refuse to read the instructions might miss. For instance, we used to do some work that needed seals because the equipment was going into a classified area. We would install the seal fitting(s) but not pour them. We would supply the material required loose as part of the shipment and put a big tag on the seal noting it needed to be filled in the field.

It seems to me if this is just a matter of removing the probe and shipping it loose, the manufacturer should maybe do that. Unfortunately, then there will be some installers who will throw the probe out because they don't read the instructions that tell them to install it. Then the installers will whine that the manufacturer should have installed it at the factory.

There was only instruction within the installation portion of the manual that was easily missed. There were no red tags, labels, ect...

 

[TheGingerElectrician]

I don't see how it is the manufacturers fault that the installer did not bother to read the instructions.

We sometimes put big tags on equipment to point out things that are important that people who refuse to read the instructions might miss. For instance, we used to do some work that needed seals because the equipment was going into a classified area. We would install the seal fitting(s) but not pour them. We would supply the material required loose as part of the shipment and put a big tag on the seal noting it needed to be filled in the field.

It seems to me if this is just a matter of removing the probe and shipping it loose, the manufacturer should maybe do that. Unfortunately, then there will be some installers who will throw the probe out because they don't read the instructions that tell them to install it. Then the installers will whine that the manufacturer should have installed it at the factory.

In fact there was no warning of the potential issue in the instructions. Only to remove this for later installation. They admitted this is an issue that can happen in certain cases but it's not stated in the instructions that it can short the whole unit with possible replacing of the entire unit necessary. They wouldn't even offer to send the replacement parts to keep the customers warranty. Only if we purchase a brand new unit would they honor the warranty.

 

[jim dungar]

There was only instruction within the installation portion of the manual that was easily missed. There were no red tags, labels, ect...

It looks like there were two instructions missed.
First remove the probe. Second reinstall the probe.

 

[TheGingerElectrician]

It looks like there were two instructions missed.
First remove the probe. Second reinstall the probe.

So you don't think the manufacturer should provide a warning that failure to do so would cause a short and you'd have to order an entire new unit? Or maybe a red label /tag or something? I don't disagree they missed that step and there will be conversation with the technicians because we should certainly have read it...

 

[hbiss]

From the way the instructions are worded, is this an American product? Where did your customer get it from?

-Hal

 

[TheGingerElectrician]

From the way the instructions are worded, is this an American product? Where did your customer get it from?

-Hal

Found out it is a swiss product with only one distributor in the US. I talked to a higher-up today and they were more understanding and are sending us a brand new unit free of charge! I explained to them we take responsibility for missing the instruction but I pleaded that they start providing a seal or label or red tag that states the importance of this process since it can cause catastrophic failure in the unit. The instructions don't even mention that this can happen. He agreed with me on that and was much more understanding than the sales person in another state that I had spoken to earlier.

 

[Elect117]

I also don't like the wording. It doesn't specifically say to remove it. It says to set it aside. If the sensor is capable of being moved outside of the unit while remaining plugged in, then that is a failure of instruction.

 

[hbiss]

It doesn't specifically say to remove it. It says to set it aside. If the sensor is capable of being moved outside of the unit while remaining plugged in, then that is a failure of instruction.

Then exactly what does it do and what are you supposed to do with it why can't the unit be shipped with the probe removed or at least out of harms way?

If that's Swiss, I'll eat my hat!

-Hal

 

[jaggedben]

I don't think the manufacturer should ship it with that part installed. I would never buy again.

 

[TheGingerElectrician]

Then exactly what does it do and what are you supposed to do with it why can't the unit be shipped with the probe removed or at least out of harms way?

If that's Swiss, I'll eat my hat!

-Hal

My mistake it's made in Finland. As far as the component it's the temperature probe. Apparently they pre-install it and leave it coiled inside the unit where all the controls are and if you kick it on before uncoiling it and running it into the sauna then the potiential is for a short if they left it contacting sensitive components when they assembled it at the factory. it should be in the manual packaging as a component to install separately IMO.

 

[jim dungar]

I don't think the manufacturer should ship it with that part installed. I would never buy again.

Loose parts can be a hassle for shipment because they require more packaging and can be lost on the job site.
A simple tag on the part saying RTFM would definitely be a good idea.

From the limited instructions, one step is to remove the item and uncoil its wires. I assume a later step says to reinsert the item and route and terminate its wires.

 

[Elect117]

I also don't like the wording. It doesn't specifically say to remove it. It says to set it aside. If the sensor is capable of being moved outside of the unit while remaining plugged in, then that is a failure of instruction.

I googled the instructions. And that is exactly what the instructions want you to do. I thought you were supposed to unplug or remove some kind of wiring. But they just want you to remove the metal rod from the sections with energized parts.

https://www.saunaplace.com/wp-content/uploads/KIP-Heater-Manual.pdf

They could also put it in a plastic cover and tape to the bottom cover so that you have to remove it to wire the power to it.

 

[jaggedben]

Some of the products I'm installing now have so many warning labels for the installer I feel like my intelligence is being insulted. This heater is the opposite situation. I would feel like my intelligence is insulted when they tell me it's my fault.

Also there's got to be a way to prepackage the temp sensor without causing a short, one way or another.

 

[hbiss]

I googled the instructions. And that is exactly what the instructions want you to do.

After reading them I'm as confused as ever.

REMOVING THE STONE GUARD AND BOTTOM COVER Remove the two screws holding the stone guard in place. Pry the guard back and lift up to remove it. Clip the ziptie holding the metal sensor housing from the elements and set it aside for later installation (9 – 11)

Flip the heater on its back and remove the bottom cover. Locate the 4” temperature sensor, uncoiling the filament and wiring it out the small notch at the base of the heater. Set the sensor aside for later installation (12 – 14).

Huh???

Are they wanting you to remove the temperature probe stored inside the unit and extend it up to the stone guard area and put it in the sensor housing??? Dude, speak English!

-Hal

 

[kwired]

This is like buying a new lawnmower. They have a big red tag on the engine telling you to fill it with oil before starting. You can't miss it. So, the question is, is the requirement for removing the probe prominently displayed? Is there a yellow or red label on the unit? Or is it something contained in the text of the installation instructions that can be overlooked? If the latter, I would say that the manufacturer should be responsible. It's something that could destroy their product that they are fully aware of, and it's their responsibility to make sure that the customer/installer can't miss it.

-Hal

Another example is electric water heaters that anymore usually have a label over the wiring compartment cable/conduit entry that warns you to not energize with no water in the tank.