Attic Spaces, 320.23

Status
Not open for further replies.

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
When searching for an answer to a question, I discovered this thread in the scrolls. Never thought of the storage angle. So, if that handbook reference is the intent of this code, I want to change it!

1.) NEC Section/Paragraph: 320.23, 320.23(A)
2.) Proposal Recommends: revised text
3.) Proposal: Revise 320.23 as follows:

320.23 In Accessible Attics. Cables in accessible attics or roof spaces that are suitable for storage shall be installed according to 320.23(A) and (B). Spaces that have no floor installed shall be considered unsuitable for storage in applying the requirements of this section.

(A) Where Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 2.1 m (7 ft) vertically of floors installed across the top of rafters or studding, cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips at least as high as the cable. Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be required within 6' of the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic entrance.

4.) Substantiation: Attic spaces without flooring are not suitable for storage due to the fact that the finished ceiling below the rafters is unprotected and subject to damage by stored items.

Under the 2005 NEC, cables in attic spaces that are unusuable for storage spaces are being needlessly protected against damage that will not likely occur. Revising this text to apply only to attic spaces with flooring installed will be as effective, while relieving installers from the requirement to protect cables where no such protection is necessary.

In addition, the removal of the reference to the term "AC cable" in 320.23 will provide clarity in relation to other articles that reference this code, such as 334.23. The term "AC cable" is unnecessary in this context, as it is located in the article by the same name.

Editted substantiation.

[ April 01, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

George
Are you telling me you have never seen "stuff" stored in an unfinished (no subflooring or flooring)attic space?

In my last house, the attic had no flooring and it took 1/2 day to get all of that "stuff" that was in the UNSTORABLE attic out to move.

People get very "creative" for storage, and unfinished attic spaces are on the top of most lists.


Not only that, but if there is space, they may put flooring down - and we all know what will happen to the cables that have been installed across the flooring... ;)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

Do you find the current wording of this code to have an answer for your situation? Okay, so we secure everything within 6' of the hatch. Is the homeowner who's pitching stuff in there going to stop at 6'?

If that stuff didn't come through the ceiling, is there a likelyhood that it will damage cables it happens to be laying on? I find it hard to believe that something that will be hefted overhead through an attic hatch will have enough hootzpa and luck to damage a cable in the attic.

Not only that, but if there is space, they may put flooring down - and we all know what will happen to the cables that have been installed across the flooring... :)

Thank you for replying, Pierre. I mean no sarcasm, I appreciate the feedback. ;)
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

George, I have a pull down stairway in my garage ceiling and an unfinished floor. You would be amazed at the material I have stored up there. I have everything from ladder jacks to pipe threaders and no floor (I might want to get back into the trade one of these days). :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

What do you mean by unfinished? Not screwed down, or no flooring at all? I'm guessing no floor at all.

The pull-down stairs are a superhighway into the attic, I didn't realize my wording had wiped that protection out. That style entrance into the attic practically makes it a real room! I'll fix that....

Right after these words from our sponsors. I need to stare at it. :)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

320.23 In Accessible Attics. Cables in accessible attics or roof spaces that are suitable for storage shall be installed according to 320.23(A) and (B). Spaces that have no floor installed and are not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders shall be considered unsuitable for storage in applying the requirements of this section.

(A) Where Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 2.1 m (7 ft) vertically of floors installed across the top of rafters or studding, cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips at least as high as the cable. Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be required within 3' horizontally of the nearest edge of the flooring installed.

4.) Substantiation: Attic spaces without flooring are not suitable for storage due to the fact that the finished ceiling below the rafters is unprotected and subject to damage by stored items. Residents are still likely to store items in spaces that are easily accessible (such as when permanent stairs are installed) despite having no flooring.

Under the 2005 NEC, cables in attic spaces that are not readily usuable for storage spaces are being needlessly protected against damage that will not likely occur. Revising this text will be as effective, while relieving installers from the requirement to protect cables where no such protection is necessary.

In addition, the removal of the reference to the term "AC cable" in 320.23 will provide clarity in relation to other articles that reference this code, such as 334.23. The term "AC cable" is unnecessary in this context, as it is located in the article by the same name.
How's that?

That's not going to fly either, is it? :(

[ April 03, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

The only way to find out is to submit the proposal. First, the panel will make a decision and it will be published. During the comment stage, everybody has the ability to make a comment. Give it a shot and see what happens. :D
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

George
Maybe you can remove the reference to the floor area and have your proposal deal with the stud and roof rafter area. I cannot see them removing the requirement for protecting the floor joists from this section. JMHO
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

Hi George, There are good possibilites in what your proposal suggests. The ill facets of destruction also exist in installation of NM [334.15] exposed work on a higher level. I mention this from experience of repairing the early NM & class II wiring installations that occur in areas thought to be out of harms way. Rough-in electrical precedes insulation and duct installations after AHJ close-in inspection.

Sometimes those itch-monkeys don't pay attention to where they're stepping while rolling batts or blow-ins. For one, NM crossing-over truss cord or ceiling joist tops are a main contender for being stepped on no matter if surf boards are layed down.

This is and opportune time to mention avoiding certain wiring short-cuts like top edge stapling that should be eliminated as one of the main concerns not well-mentioned in the NEC.

My apologies if I seem to be outspoken here. Back to you George.

rbj, Seattle
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

Originally posted by gndrod:
My apologies if I seem to be outspoken here. Back to you George.
Very outspoken. It's been a long day and I'm tired--what are you trying to tell me? :D :D

This is and opportune time to mention avoiding certain wiring short-cuts like top edge stapling that should be eliminated as one of the main concerns not well-mentioned in the NEC.
In terms of the proposal or the forum? Should I add text to this effect?
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

Dang, I posted on the wrong thread while referencing an earlier link by George...
When searching for an answer to a question, I discovered this thread in the scrolls.
I had picked this thread in your earlier post George. So guess where my current post reply ended up. I overslept. :eek:

It's too late. I'll be back in AM.

rbj
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

George, You're on the mark for improving attic verbage in [320.23]. I'm suggesting to include a more explicit change related to NM cabling in the 2005 [334.30] 'Securing and Supporting...' The [334.30] new last sentence reference for securing 'within a raceway' can be changed to a more effective term 'securing a pathway'. This is more NM relevant with an additional extension "in attic areas adjacent to other construction equipment installations."
Warning about wire sheath damage due to tight stapling of NM across any truss or rafter top chords near equipment seems more occurant.
Staying ahead of the other trades by incorporating protective NEC regs can't be mentioned enough. I am working on other proposal submissions and I know how diverse the pretzels can be twisted. :D

Have a good one.
rbj
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

George, I was getting a little obstreperous and had to go take a nap. I think I'm okay now. Your intent about revising [320.23] 'Top of floor joists' could include [334.30]'Securing and supporting' for improving stapling techniques on attic truss top cord/ceiling joist surface locations. The 2005 [334.30] does not encourage easy interpretation in it's current revision. The added [334.30] sentence 'Sections of cable protected from physical damage shall not be required to be secured within the raceway'. Wow, does 'within' exclude surface raceway?

The statement connotes various fittings of creative design or maybe a guard strip, catwalk? I think an explicit description of the NM pathway over the structure grid in an attic is in order. Let me think about it a bit.

Maybe the NFPA might gradually allow visual graphic aids in the NEC. I need help in showing a pic in this forum. I have all graphic models in bmp and no PDF conversion at this time. Any help for other ways?

rbj, Seattle Please note: Above post was intended for Proposals for the 2008 NEC Attic Spaces, 320.23 thread.

Reply is for georgestolz.
Just tossing that here. Let me mull this over. I'm still pondering "obstreperous." Good word. :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

RBJ, Photobucket.com can store bmp's. Maybe the forum can display them as well? You might give it a try.

Otherwise, try opening the file in a good program, select "Save As" from the "File" menu, and save it as a jpg. Then upload it as normal.

[ April 05, 2005, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

Go to www.photobucket.com and register for free. Then follow the steps to upload the bmp onto that website. Then, just copy and paste the "
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

RBJ, how is NM stapled to the top of trusses going to result in damage to the cable, more so than resting without a staple? I can't picture it.

Edit: Okay, I get what you're saying. Now I ask this: How do you wire a house without crossing a truss? This seems like a huge undertaking, if I'm catching up with you.

[ April 07, 2005, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Re: Attic Spaces, 320.23

Yo George,I'm waiting for the Pbucket email confirm. I can hardly wait to get a graphic up. :D My computer skills suck. Hopefully I'll have some graphic details soon that can be inspected online. :D But most trade dudes are nimble-footed and won't let that happen. ;)

I'm still waiting for Photobucket email confirm.
rbj, Seattle
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top