APT COMPLEX WITH 768 ZINSCO PANEL . $$$$$

[stuartdmc]

I have a 768 apartment unit complex project that we've just spent 98k on x-raying the Zinsco panels just to find out that 40% to 60% of them are felling the heat testing from over heating from the breakers, main lugs and bussing.
To change out all 768 panels would be unimaginable and costly to say the least, some units only show heat from the load side of the breakers, and others are showing heat at the main lugs and bussing line side of the breakers.

I am thinking about a repair job in lieu of replacement one. My thoughts are, that the apartment complex was built in the 50's, where the Zinsco panels and breakers have had a good 60 year of use, without any maintenance!! I thinking by replacing the breakers with the newer manufactured ones, replacing the bus where there burnt and the main logs if need be I can buy another 60 years. (To complicate the mater even more, they used the first 3 floor of panels as a feed through to feed the panels on the floors above, so to remove the entire panel it would increase the cost to remove the feeders.
I entertain each of your thought for this is going to be an expensive fix either way.
Thanks.

 

[templdl]

That's one big job. Just think of the liability should it be de ided to mess around and patch up the existing panels in order to save money. Who will bed liable for the breakers even working today to meet the their factory calibration tests and functioning properly?
You should first review your liability insurance. There's a lot of units and people living there. CYA!!!!

 

[stuartdmc]

Photos of the heat caused by Zinsco Breakers

Photos of the heat caused by Zinsco Breakers

Here are some photos of the heat test.

 

[stuartdmc]

I have a 768 apartment unit complex project that we've just spent 98k on x-raying the Zinsco panels just to find out that 40% to 60% of them are felling the heat testing from over heating from the breakers, main lugs and bussing.
To change out all 768 panels would be unimaginable and costly to say the least, some units only show heat from the load side of the breakers, and others are showing heat at the main lugs and bussing line side of the breakers.

I am thinking about a repair job in lieu of replacement one. My thoughts are, that the apartment complex was built in the 50's, where the Zinsco panels and breakers have had a good 60 year of use, without any maintenance!! I thinking by replacing the breakers with the newer manufactured ones, replacing the bus where there burnt and the main logs if need be I can buy another 60 years. (To complicate the mater even more, they used the first 3 floor of panels as a feed through to feed the panels on the floors above, so to remove the entire panel it would increase the cost to remove the feeders.
I entertain each of your thought for this is going to be an expensive fix either way.
Thanks.

see photos

 

[mbrooke]

Good investment to replace them

 

[donaldelectrician]

see photos

So you want to put a Band Aid over a Bullet Wound ?

Zinsco you say ... Cash , Grass , or Backside .

Replace the Panels , your fix it strategies will fail .




Don

 

[stuartdmc]

So you want to put a Band Aid over a Bullet Wound ?

Zinsco you say ... Cash , Grass , or Backside .

Replace the Panels , your fix it strategies will fail .




Don

Don, I hear you and I agree with you all.
I did a quick estimate its approx. 975.6k to replace all panels with an Eaton retro replacement panel and that's (not counting the drywall and painting repairs) and approx. 650.k to replace Zinsco for Zinsco.

 

[donaldelectrician]

I would like to have the rents for one month on that apt. complex . A Major Improvement will increase the value of the apts. He will make cash just by doing the job . Sell him on that aspect .


Then give him a mini tutorial on Zinsco Panels !






Don

 

[ActionDave]

I have never worked on a large apartment complex. I have had dealings with cheapskate landlords and good landlords. High rent districts vs low rent don't factor in....most landlords are cheapskates.

Either way if there is work that needs to be done then it needs to be done and it will always cost less to do it right today.

How hard you have to work to this through the landlords skull depends on the landlord.

 

[norcal]

Don, I hear you and I agree with you all.
I did a quick estimate its approx. 975.6k to replace all panels with an Eaton retro replacement panel and that's (not counting the drywall and painting repairs) and approx. 650.k to replace Zinsco for Zinsco.

They have not built Zinsco/Sylvania panels for about 30 years, how can one replace Zinsco for Zinsco unless you came across a huge stash of NOS, New Old Stock Zinsco panels? And the only circuit breakers still being produced are ChiCom sourced UBI, UL classified breakers. $$$

 

[zbang]

If they spent that much on IR work, I'd expect that the replacement cost wouldn't be a shock.

 

[iwire]

I have a 768 apartment unit complex project that we've just spent 98k on x-raying the Zinsco panels just to find out that 40% to 60% of them are felling the heat testing from over heating from the breakers, main lugs and bussing.
To change out all 768 panels would be unimaginable and costly to say the least,

7, 70, 700 or 7,000 apartments the cost remains more or less the same per unit and they are taking in rent from each of those apartments.

I can't see doing a patch job.

I would look into a retrofit panelboard so that you do not have to change the back box.

Cutler Hammer makes them http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...cuitBreakers/BRRetrofitInteriorKits/index.htm others might as well.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

The only option is total replacement of the existing panels. Anything else you still have the junk - and a HUGE liability!

Is the wiring copper or aluminum?? I talked a potential buyer of a small complex with Zinsco panels and aluminum wiring. LIABILITY!!!



RC

 

[Cow]

7, 70, 700 or 7,000 apartments the cost remains more or less the same per unit and they are taking in rent from each of those apartments.

I can't see doing a patch job.

I would look into a retrofit panelboard so that you do not have to change the back box.

Cutler Hammer makes them http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...cuitBreakers/BRRetrofitInteriorKits/index.htm others might as well.

I agree completely. You have to think of it per unit.

I would also look hard at those CH retrofit kits also, if that didn't work, it's new panel time. No half measures, with that many apartments and that many people living that close together I wouldn't offer anything less than a panel replacement or retrofit kit, I would not take any chances.

I might try to sell the job in phases to ease the burden. For example, 5 panels replaced a day until the job is finished, etc.

 

[Sierrasparky]

what is wrong with UBI breakers? The Zinsco replacements.

 

[donaldelectrician]

what is wrong with UBI breakers? The Zinsco replacements.

Price for one . Way too high for a panel full .





Don

 

[petersonra]

Do these units have AFCI and GFCI breakers/receptacles where required? Do they even have grounded receptacles?

If you replace the panels what else are you going to have to do?

A little early for aluminum wire I think, so you probably don't have to worry about that.

 

[donaldelectrician]

I have ...

... (To complicate the mater even more, they used the first 3 floor of panels as a feed through to feed the panels on the floors above, so to remove the entire panel it would increase the cost to remove the feeders.
I entertain each of your thought for this is going to be an expensive fix either way.
Thanks.

Please clarify on feeders . Do these apartments have individual Meters ?

I have only seen Feed Through Panels on MLO panels in Commercial environment . Same owner .




Don.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Price for one . Way too high for a panel full .





Don

Do these units have AFCI and GFCI breakers/receptacles where required? Do they even have grounded receptacles?

If you replace the panels what else are you going to have to do?

A little early for aluminum wire I think, so you probably don't have to worry about that.

Too expensive yes!
However if you replace panels you should have to install AFCI as per the code today- in 2 years probably not.

 

[petersonra]

I have a 768 apartment unit complex project that we've just spent 98k on x-raying the Zinsco panels just to find out that 40% to 60% of them are felling the heat testing from over heating from the breakers, main lugs and bussing.
To change out all 768 panels would be unimaginable and costly to say the least, some units only show heat from the load side of the breakers, and others are showing heat at the main lugs and bussing line side of the breakers.

I am thinking about a repair job in lieu of replacement one. My thoughts are, that the apartment complex was built in the 50's, where the Zinsco panels and breakers have had a good 60 year of use, without any maintenance!! I thinking by replacing the breakers with the newer manufactured ones, replacing the bus where there burnt and the main logs if need be I can buy another 60 years. (To complicate the mater even more, they used the first 3 floor of panels as a feed through to feed the panels on the floors above, so to remove the entire panel it would increase the cost to remove the feeders.
I entertain each of your thought for this is going to be an expensive fix either way.
Thanks.

just out of curiosity. what is your criteria for "failing"? None of the pictures show temperatures that are all that high.