Apartment feeder passing through another apartment loadcenter

[jrannis]

Gents,

I need some help defending this circa 1951 installation.

The 12 unit complex is two story.
Each of the first floor apartments has a 60 amp main lug fuse panel with both its feeder and the feeder for the apartment above it in the same conduit.
The feeder for the apartment on the second floor is looped through the panel on the first floor.

Is this installation still compliant? We are under the 2011 NEC?

The President of the condo association insists that the unit owners have been allowed by the City to repull new feeders and keep both feeders in the same conduit.
This doesn't seen correct to me but they insist it has been allowed as past practice.

Also,
The owner of the unit will require a 100 amp upgrade and will need to have a separate meter and main installed in te existing electric room as the existing meter center only has 60 amp fuse pull outs.
I will have to cut the feeder to the apartment above in order to change the fuse panel to a circuit breaker load center.
The inspector will accept us splicing the feeder to the above apartment if we enclose them in a separate junction with a tamper proof cover.
I believe that is his call and do not dispute this.

Much tanks for any inside you can provide

 

[iwire]

Is this installation still compliant? We are under the 2011 NEC?

What code section do you think prohibits it?

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with what you described.

The President of the condo association insists that the unit owners have been allowed by the City to repull new feeders and keep both feeders in the same conduit.
This doesn't seen correct to me but they insist it has been allowed as past practice.

Again, I don't see a code violation.

The inspector will accept us splicing the feeder to the above apartment if we enclose them in a separate junction with a tamper proof cover.
I believe that is his call and do not dispute this.

Under the NEC rules it is not the inspectors call to make. Under the current NEC splicing in an electrical cabinet that contains overcurrent devices is allowed.

Please take a look at 312.8


One thing that may be an issue is the derating required when you have more than 3 current carrying conductors in a single raceway.

 

[iwire]

Shoot John, I did not realize it was you until after I replied.

 

[chris kennedy]

Any permit pull after July 1 2015 is under the 2011.

 

[jrannis]

I guess that my heartburn with the installation is that they share a conduit and each have separate meters and separate pullouts.
Someone could pull out the first floor disconnect and not realize that energized conductors from another meter pass through the panel.
or, a fault could develop on one apartments feeder and wipe out the other one.
I have seen this in any modern design or at least in the last 35 years or so.

 

[jrannis]

Shoot John, I did not realize it was you until after I replied.

Thanks for the reference.
I see if I can work something out with the owner.

 

[mwm1752]

Gents,

I need some help defending this circa 1951 installation.

The 12 unit complex is two story.
Each of the first floor apartments has a 60 amp main lug fuse panel with both its feeder and the feeder for the apartment above it in the same conduit.
The feeder for the apartment on the second floor is looped through the panel on the first floor.

Is this installation still compliant? We are under the 2011 NEC?

The President of the condo association insists that the unit owners have been allowed by the City to repull new feeders and keep both feeders in the same conduit.
This doesn't seen correct to me but they insist it has been allowed as past practice.

Also,
The owner of the unit will require a 100 amp upgrade and will need to have a separate meter and main installed in te existing electric room as the existing meter center only has 60 amp fuse pull outs.
I will have to cut the feeder to the apartment above in order to change the fuse panel to a circuit breaker load center.
The inspector will accept us splicing the feeder to the above apartment if we enclose them in a separate junction with a tamper proof cover.
I believe that is his call and do not dispute this.

Much tanks for any inside you can provide

210.25 addresses this in a round about way -- there may be questions on running circuitry through another's property but gennerally speaking apartments or condo's own only inside the sheetrock. As long as you pass thru a concealed location you should be fine -- now town homes may have a different ouwnership line

 

[kwired]

210.25 addresses this in a round about way -- there may be questions on running circuitry through another's property but gennerally speaking apartments or condo's own only inside the sheetrock. As long as you pass thru a concealed location you should be fine -- now town homes may have a different ouwnership line

210 is branch circuits though OP is asking about feeders.

I don't know of anything specific to NEC that prohibits this, but think it is possibly poor design - especially where separate ownership of the units involved comes into play. It may be a violation of other codes because of the fact it is run in separately owned space. A raceway in a common wall between spaces is one thing, but that panel basically belongs to the unit it serves.

 

[Strathead]

As kwired said in the first post, current carrying conductor derating is going to be required. Assuming you are looking for a reason to deny this installation, or make it cost prohibitive and require a "correction" this would seem to be the best bet. If the apartment staying the same is not already larger which is seems unlikely to be as they didn't care about that kind of thing in 1950, both feeders would require replacement.

 

[jrannis]

Just so that it is crystal clear for me.
Separately metered in the same conduit, both have a 60amp pull out as a main.
This Is ok
Conduit enters the first floor condo main lug loadcenter and drops off the first floor conductors, the second floor conductors loop through the first floor loadcenter and terminate in the second floor condo.
This Is OK

Is the key to this being conforming that the conductors for the upstairs condo are unsliced when they pass through the first floor condo?

 

[kwired]

Just so that it is crystal clear for me.
Separately metered in the same conduit, both have a 60amp pull out as a main.
This Is ok
Conduit enters the first floor condo main lug loadcenter and drops off the first floor conductors, the second floor conductors loop through the first floor loadcenter and terminate in the second floor condo.
This Is OK

Is the key to this being conforming that the conductors for the upstairs condo are unsliced when they pass through the first floor condo?

Per NEC, I think they can pass through the first floor loadcenter. I also don't think it matters if they are spliced or not.

 

[GoldDigger]

As long as they have already passed through OCPD appropriate to the wire size I see no problem. Just so they are not still service conductors.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If it is a condo, then I expect that the resident owns his panel.

It I owned the panel and you wanted to run trough it, you would have to pay me for an easement. Same for a splice box that is only accessible from inside my unit.

 

[DrSparks]

I guess that my heartburn with the installation is that they share a conduit and each have separate meters and separate pullouts.
Someone could pull out the first floor disconnect and not realize that energized conductors from another meter pass through the panel.
or, a fault could develop on one apartments feeder and wipe out the other one.
I have seen this in any modern design or at least in the last 35 years or so.

perfectly fine. just make sure each enclosure has labeling indicating that there are pass through feeders.

 

[jrannis]

I'm thinking of labeling the inside of the loadcenter with a sharpie.
It would this be compliant?

Caution:
Please read to following out loud in your best Andy Griffith impersonation voice.
"This here feeder goes up yonder to the above apartment."

 

[augie47]

Please read to following out loud in your best Andy Griffith impersonation voice.
"This here feeder goes up yonder to the above apartment."

You didn't tell us you were installing this in Tennessee

 

[kwired]

If it is a condo, then I expect that the resident owns his panel.

It I owned the panel and you wanted to run trough it, you would have to pay me for an easement. Same for a splice box that is only accessible from inside my unit.

Makes sense for new construction, for existing construction negotiations need to be made when something comes up, like say you wanted to change your panel and your upstairs neighbor's feeder runs through it - at some point you are likely going to cut off the neighbor's power in the process, and then you may decide you want them to either re-route their supply or come to some easement agreement to continue to run through your property. Existing things tend to remain as is until something like this comes up.

 

[jrannis]

Interesting thing is, this was built as an apartment building and then turned into a condo.
They share a single water meter and share a boiler.

 

[kwired]

Interesting thing is, this was built as an apartment building and then turned into a condo.
They share a single water meter and share a boiler.

boiler for domestic hot water or for heating? I imagine heating costs are somewhat negligible at your location compared to even areas just a two or three hundred miles or so further north, and definitely compared to northern third of the continental US.

 

[AJElectric]

Just so that it is crystal clear for me.
Separately metered in the same conduit, both have a 60amp pull out as a main.
This Is ok
Conduit enters the first floor condo main lug loadcenter and drops off the first floor conductors, the second floor conductors loop through the first floor loadcenter and terminate in the second floor condo.
This Is OK

I can totally understand your reservations. And just because it meets code doesn't mean it's a good idea. I can easily see a DIYer or newbie electrician not realizing those are hot wires even when the main is OFF.

Probably doesn't warrant re-routing the upstairs feeders. If I was faced with this situation, I would at least find one of those "powered from more than one source - you could die" stickers and put it on there.

Your Andy Griffith label is a swell idea too.