An existing 208/120 3 phase rated panel being used as a 240/120V 3 phase high delta type panel

Cartoon1

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Hello, I was on a site and i noticed that the building main service panel is rated at 208/120 3 phase on the panel board. but the service to this panel is 240/120 3 phase high delta. Is that okay to run 240/120 3 phase on a panel that is rated for 208/120 3 phase? Thank you


Simens.png See attached pic
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
By the look of it, not okay per the label.

This appears to be a custom order ATS? I'll defer to anyone who knows more about Siemens ATS, but I wonder who made the mistake:
- the person who ordered the equipment didn't tell Siemens it was high leg
- the Siemens person who designed or labeled it got it wrong
- someone changed the service afterwards
- something else?

One further wonders if Siemens would actually have a different design for high-leg, and therefore whether it's a real safety issue or just a legal one. Many 3 phase panelboards are rated for 240/120 high leg as well as 208/120. But an ATS has more components that might need to be different.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The OP said it's the service panel, not an ATS, so there are no active components.

Electrically, the high leg voltage is within the panel's actual, if not printed rating.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
The OP said it's the service panel, not an ATS, so there are no active components.

Electrically, the high leg voltage is within the panel's actual, if not printed rating.
Maybe not. A 208V L-L insulation system may not necessarily be adequate for an equal L-N amount (this is the problem of slash rated breakers).

The L-L voltage is not adequate per the printed label, even though its actual construction likely is.
This is a customer built panel, hence the nameplate voltage. Ask the factory if a new label is available.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I agree with Jim D. This likely a customer built panelboard and as such it gets the voltage label for the system it was ordered for. As he also indicated, likely it is the same panelboard if it had been ordered for 120/240 3 phase. That said, many AHJs would not approve this because they have know way of knowing if it is rated for 208 line to neutral. His comment on branch breakers is worth noting as well. If you have any 2 pole breakers in this panel and one pole is connected to the high leg, then they would have to be straight rated 240 volt as opposed to the normal 120/240 rated.
Note that standard off the shelf load centers and panelboards usually indicate if they are approved on a 120/240 3 phase system.
 
The catalog number ends in ATS. But that could be coincidence.
Yes it's a coincidence. A is the code for tin plated aluminum bus, T is for top feed, S is for surface mounting.

The third letter in the part number is the voltage/system code, and C is for 208y/120 so it was indeed ordered as such. B or Q would be the code for a Delta high leg ( they give you the choice of whether B or C phase is high leg). Anyway I highly doubt there is any difference between the two other than the label and the location of factory installed slash or non slash rated breakers. I would just take my label maker and put the correct voltage on it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
By the look of it, not okay per the label.

This appears to be a custom order ATS? I'll defer to anyone who knows more about Siemens ATS, but I wonder who made the mistake:
- the person who ordered the equipment didn't tell Siemens it was high leg
- the Siemens person who designed or labeled it got it wrong
- someone changed the service afterwards
- something else?

One further wonders if Siemens would actually have a different design for high-leg, and therefore whether it's a real safety issue or just a legal one. Many 3 phase panelboards are rated for 240/120 high leg as well as 208/120. But an ATS has more components that might need to be different.
I know Square D will mark custom ordered panel with 208/120. Most panelboards I have purchased were assembled on site with stock items though. Those stock items are labeled 120/240. "Load centers" are also labeled 120/240. 120/240 labeled panels can be used on 208 volt wye systems though.
 

Cartoon1

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Great answers everyone! The model number does specifically request for 208/120 per Siemens info. I did also find out that it is also rated for 240/120 as many of you has expressed. But of course since it is technically custom built, there could be parts that are not rated correctly. There is liability in cases like this if information is a little vague. For this particular project it is not going to matter anyways since im going to have to upgrade the panel and cabling with higher amperage because of the new load that is going to be added to this building. I appreciate everyone answers!!
 
I know Square D will mark custom ordered panel with 208/120. Most panelboards I have purchased were assembled on site with stock items though. Those stock items are labeled 120/240. "Load centers" are also labeled 120/240. 120/240 labeled panels can be used on 208 volt wye systems though.
And FWIW, the topic of 240 vs 208 load centers came up a while back, and I did some digging and could not find an instance of one being rated for one voltage system but not the other. They were all approved for both according to my research.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Great answers everyone! The model number does specifically request for 208/120 per Siemens info. I did also find out that it is also rated for 240/120 as many of you has expressed. But of course since it is technically custom built, there could be parts that are not rated correctly. There is liability in cases like this if information is a little vague. For this particular project it is not going to matter anyways since im going to have to upgrade the panel and cabling with higher amperage because of the new load that is going to be added to this building. I appreciate everyone answers!!
They are likely built with all the same components, would cost more to stock separate panel bus segments for 208 and 240 when the requirements for them would be so similar. Just the fact it is a factory order they can label it to match the application where stuff made for general stock they are going to label for max volts.

Square D I-line panels- all of them are rated 600 volts. You have a 208/120 application - a custom order might be marked 208/120 but is made with same bus assembly as a 600 volt panel. Even a single phase application has three 600 volt buses in it you just don't use one of them.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Even a single phase application has three 600 volt buses in it you just don't use one of them.
But that would mean that you could only use 2/3 of the breaker spaces, wouldn't it?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I believe so if it is a 240/120 3 phase delta system.
It seems to me that if you were to use a three phase panel on a single phase service, a third of the breaker landing points would be on a dead bus.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
It seems to me that if you were to use a three phase panel on a single phase service, a third of the breaker landing points would be on a dead bus.
It depends on the panel. While losd centers have limited optiond, there are some panels whuch can have their 'breaker to bus' connections moved so the high leg is not available without loosing breaker mounting space.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
But that would mean that you could only use 2/3 of the breaker spaces, wouldn't it?
Not with I-Line series panels. You do have to make sure you order breakers with jaws placed to connect to the two buses you are utilizing though.
I-Line buses are stacked from front to rear and all three buses are available at any point along the breaker mounting space.
 
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