Ambient Temp Calculation

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DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
How do you determine ambient temperature?

For instance you have cables that run through an attic and the temperature is hot in the summer, cold in the winter, etc.
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Well the general consensus is that you use the highest temperature likely to be encountered. That said, the NEC doesn't proscribe any specific means for determination. You can use your best judgement, and no one could technically say you are in error, including an AHJ inspector... but that doesn't mean his best judgement doesn't have more weight than yours. :p
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I have never seen anyone worry about ambient temperature in an attic when wiring residential jobs
For some reason, it seems to be raised more often for DC PV system wiring than for normal AC branch or feeder wiring. Maybe because the portion outside the roof raises awareness of the temperature issue?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Well the general consensus is that you use the highest temperature likely to be encountered.
I think calling it a "general consensus" is taking one step too many. I would say instead that this is a common viewpoint. Another viewpoint (mine, in fact) is that we should use a year-round average. I have the math behind that opinion, but not the wording of the code itself.

 

DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
Well the general consensus is that you use the highest temperature likely to be encountered. That said, the NEC doesn't proscribe any specific means for determination. You can use your best judgement, and no one could technically say you are in error, including an AHJ inspector... but that doesn't mean his best judgement doesn't have more weight than yours. :p

What about when an attic is very cold and it actually increases ampacity?
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
And my take is that you should be using an average that is weighted to consider the fact that insulation decays faster at higher temperature. But I've not actually done the math.

-Jon
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The use of the term ambient , IMO, is a terrible word choice. Ambient temp. is the temp. around the cable but when??? It is not the average, the high or the low, so what is it?

If the temperature in attic is hot for part of the day and cooler in the evening is that enough to damage the conductors? In a residence, IMO, that is not likely to happen. Commercially maybe over long periods of time.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
And my take is that you should be using an average that is weighted to consider the fact that insulation decays faster at higher temperature. But I've not actually done the math.

-Jon

IMO, the ambient temperature is what it is. If the ambient temperature is what is going to drive ampacity of conductors than it ought to be whatever the actual ambient temperature actually is.

However, as a practical matter, that is all but impossible to do, so we have another vague and thus all but unenforceable provision in the code.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I would say that exceeding the rated insulation temperature only during the summer is small comfort.
Just knowing the average gives you no information st all about what the max is.
By the "average" argument you should not need to use a roof/sun adder since the exposed conduit gets colder than the air at night. :)
I could see using summer average, but not annual average.
Of course the generous safety factor built into NEC calculations may reduce the importance of all of this discussion.
 
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DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
I have never seen anyone worry about ambient temperature in an attic when wiring residential jobs

A guy with the initials JP over on the Inspection News forum is/was VERY worried about ambient temp and bundling in a residential setting. Read a bunch of old topics from 2009-2011 or so. Not sure if he is still there.

Mosey on over and check it out.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
What about when an attic is very cold and it actually increases ampacity?
I understand and agree ampacity increases when attic is very cold.

However, conductor ampacity requirements are such that the ampacity must always equal or exceed the calculated load. Assuming the calculated load is the same at all times during the year, that would make the hottest temperature the one to determine conductor ampacity... as that is when the ampacity will be at its lowest value.

Unless y'all think we should run around changing wire sizes for seasonal temperature changes... :D
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
If the temperature in attic is hot for part of the day and cooler in the evening is that enough to damage the conductors?
It may be... depends on conductor load when it's hot. For example, I would expect a conductor supplying an area heater to not be subjected to summertime high temperatures... so not subject to high ambient temperature correction for any portion in the attic.

JMO

I will add that where a conductor has insufficient ampacity at any time, whatever degradation occurs is not reversible by cooling the conductor for commonly used types of insulation.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I think calling it a "general consensus" is taking one step too many. I would say instead that this is a common viewpoint. Another viewpoint (mine, in fact) is that we should use a year-round average. I have the math behind that opinion, but not the wording of the code itself.

It's that last part that matters... is it not?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
And my take is that you should be using an average that is weighted to consider the fact that insulation decays faster at higher temperature. But I've not actually done the math.

-Jon
Please do not submit a change that forces us to calculate MTBF (mean time between failure). :D
 
From what little I've read about attic temperature, if it gets over 60 Celsius (which it can) then the ventilation needs to be fixed anyway, if only to protect the roofing. On the other hand there are a lot of existing houses with inadequate ventilation and old 60 degree NM cable.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
However, conductor ampacity requirements are such that the ampacity must always equal or exceed the calculated load. Assuming the calculated load is the same at all times during the year, that would make the hottest temperature the one to determine conductor ampacity... as that is when the ampacity will be at its lowest value.
The physics behind the entire issue is not as simple as that, Smart $. The whole reason for limiting the ?ampacity? is to limit the degradation of the wire?s insulation system. Jon (Winnie) had the right concept: temperature is the bad guy in this equation, and higher temperatures cause faster degradation.

The temperature that the insulation sees is a combination of the surrounding air temperature and the increase in temperature caused by current flow. We all know and understand this portion.

The math to which Jon referred is called the ?Arrhenius Equation.? Start with this: If you surround a wire with 30C air, and keep that surrounding temperature (notice how I cleverly avoided using the word ?ambient??) constant for decades and decades upon end, and if you push through the wire a constant current that exactly matches the tabulated (or calculated) ampacity, then we will have reasonable assurance that the wire?s insulation system will remain in acceptable condition for its design lifetime. I heard once that the design lifetime is 40 years. I have no proof of that value, but let?s use it for discussion purposes.

What the Arrhenius Equation would tell us is that if we were to take a second identical wire with the same current flow and surround the second wire with air at 40C, and if we maintained that temperature constant for decades upon decades on end, then the second wire?s insulation system would degrade as much in 20 years as the first wire?s insulation system would degrade in 40 years. The rule of thumb is that if you add 10C to the temperature, you cut the lifetime in half.

On the other hand, if the surrounding temperature is kept at or below 20C, and if we keep the same current constant, then the lifetime of wire?s insulation system could go as long as 80 years. From a practical standpoint, we know that wires do not carry their rated ampacity value for decades on end. Loads are turned on and off, and load values are seldom as high as the calculations would predict. We also know that the surrounding temperatures vary from day to day and from month to month. So yes there will be hot summer days, and the rate of degradation gets worse during those days. But whatever time is spent at the peak surrounding temperature will not result in the same amount of degradation as would have been experienced if that temperature had been kept constant forever. Also, during the cooler months, the rate of degradation is much slower.

This is the reason that I am not in favor of basing an ampacity calculation solely on the highest temperature that will ever surround the wire during its entire lifetime.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
And my take is that you should be using an average that is weighted to consider the fact that insulation decays faster at higher temperature. But I've not actually done the math.

-Jon


If the average temperature is what they want then they should say "average temp". Ambient temp is not average and has no meaning IMO.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio

The physics behind the entire issue is not as simple as that, Smart $. The whole reason for limiting the ?ampacity? is to limit the degradation of the wire?s insulation system. Jon (Winnie) had the right concept: temperature is the bad guy in this equation, and higher temperatures cause faster degradation.

The temperature that the insulation sees is a combination of the surrounding air temperature and the increase in temperature caused by current flow. We all know and understand this portion.

The math to which Jon referred is called the ?Arrhenius Equation.? Start with this: If you surround a wire with 30C air, and keep that surrounding temperature (notice how I cleverly avoided using the word ?ambient??) constant for decades and decades upon end, and if you push through the wire a constant current that exactly matches the tabulated (or calculated) ampacity, then we will have reasonable assurance that the wire?s insulation system will remain in acceptable condition for its design lifetime. I heard once that the design lifetime is 40 years. I have no proof of that value, but let?s use it for discussion purposes.

What the Arrhenius Equation would tell us is that if we were to take a second identical wire with the same current flow and surround the second wire with air at 40C, and if we maintained that temperature constant for decades upon decades on end, then the second wire?s insulation system would degrade as much in 20 years as the first wire?s insulation system would degrade in 40 years. The rule of thumb is that if you add 10C to the temperature, you cut the lifetime in half.

On the other hand, if the surrounding temperature is kept at or below 20C, and if we keep the same current constant, then the lifetime of wire?s insulation system could go as long as 80 years. From a practical standpoint, we know that wires do not carry their rated ampacity value for decades on end. Loads are turned on and off, and load values are seldom as high as the calculations would predict. We also know that the surrounding temperatures vary from day to day and from month to month. So yes there will be hot summer days, and the rate of degradation gets worse during those days. But whatever time is spent at the peak surrounding temperature will not result in the same amount of degradation as would have been experienced if that temperature had been kept constant forever. Also, during the cooler months, the rate of degradation is much slower.

This is the reason that I am not in favor of basing an ampacity calculation solely on the highest temperature that will ever surround the wire during its entire lifetime.
Charlie,

While I appreciate the explanation of your viewpoint, as I said back in my first post to this thread, " the NEC doesn't proscribe any specific means for determination. You can use your best judgement, and no one could technically say you are in error." No one includes me. :D
 
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