aluminum wiring.

[al hildenbrand]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Ty,

But the one issue I see with the Purple Twisters is that they are rated for (1)CU to (1)AL only.

There are more wire combinations than that.

Maybe you are thinking about the admonishment to always use Cu and Al together in the #65 and not use the #65 for Al-Al alone.

Go to this link and click on the image of a Twister, and then scroll down to the #65 combinations table.

 

[shelco]

Re: aluminum wiring.

I agree that there is a lot of unsubstantiated info out there however I have seen a number of ( and i will find and list the link ) studies by Engineers and independant labs that have shown failures, though if you look hard enough you could probably find failures with almost any situation. Once again these may or may not be contrived with some influence from sources that stand to gain but from a liability stand point when you are in court you can bet that these would be brought forth. It just isn't worth it to me. I agree as well that not everyone can afford to rewire but when it comes time to sell the home, you are going to find it hard if not impossible to sell because ins companies won't insure unless the rewire or cop alum has been done. Some won't even accept the cop alum.
Almost all of the ins. co. that I have checked with say that this is the case or soon will be.
As for me i will only rewire or walk away.

 

[charlie]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Shelco, please reread Pierre's post of May 08, 2005 08:09 PM. Anecdotal evidence and "independent labs" just don't cut it when Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories like UL list them.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Who knows what I was reading

 

[shelco]

Re: aluminum wiring.

I whole heartidly agree with what you are saying.
but as As I have stated it is not worth it to me.
How can I justify charging my customer for this type of remediation unless they understand the implications and issue with insurance. If any one doubts that all you have to do is check with the insurance industry and ask if the will write a new policy for a home with aluminum wire even though some remediation has been done other than a rewire. All the major companies and probably most of the others simply won't. If you have had no issues doing it that way great, but My choice is not to.

 

[celtic]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Originally posted by shelco:

How can I justify charging my customer for this type of remediation unless they understand the implications and issue with insurance.

You cannot justify the size of your customers wallet...judging them because a lack of thickness in the wallet region is kind of messed up.

Originally posted by shelco:

If any one doubts that ...

That's for the customer to decide...same as the FPE issue...the information is readily available....not everyone can afford a complete rewire job. If you don't use your skills and talent some hack will and rape the HO. You let your customer make an informed decision based on FACT and their own financial status.

Originally posted by shelco:

...If you have had no issues doing it that way great, but My choice is not to.

While I do NOT doubt your integrity, and I agree with you to some degree, I leave the decision up to the HO - who is ultimately paying the bill for a job that is "code compliant".
Sadly, most opt for quick and cheap. If that's what they want (aka, can afford) - that's what they get...hopefully from some EC who actually takes pride in their work..... even if it is the quick and cheap way.

 

[Linearelectric]

Re: aluminum wiring.

I was just reading through the posts about the aluminum to copper debate and thought i would share a few of my expriences. I am an electrical cotractor in Long Island, NY. I have had quite a few calls from 3 different co-op cmplexes concerned about the "#65 Ideal purple twisters". 2 of these complexes had them installed (and paid through the nose). I checked some of the electric baseboard heaters (fed with #12 aluminum wiring) and found that 5 out of the 14 i checked had melted and/or burnt "#65 Ideal purple twisters" in the splice boxes. Then i went on to spot check the refrigerator and counter top receptacles in the kitchens and found 8 more burnt Purple ideal wire nuts. I am now trying to get the fire marshals in these towns involved in an investigation. From my experience, and from the fact that ALL the inspectors in this area WILL NOT do ANY pigtail inspections unless thy are of the "listed crimping type" i would say, the purple wire not SHOULD BE AVOIDED.

 

[pierre]

Re: aluminum wiring.

12 AWG Al is not rated for the same as 12 AWG copper. For kitchens and heaters, 10 AWG Al should have been installed. See 240.4(D) Small Conductors.

There may have been a lot of heat developed because of the size conductor.

Also the splice is only as good as the installer

 

[Linearelectric]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Pierre

If you look at the listing for the "Ideal #65 purple twister" it clearly states that "the wirenut is not intended for complete home retrofit". Furthermore, the wirenut is filled with a FLAMMABLE oxide-inhibitor, and the shell is made of flammable material. I dont know about you. but if i wre to use something in my childs bedroom, it definitely wouldnt be that.

 

[Linearelectric]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Pierre

I also would like to apologize for not being more thorough. The AL wiring on the hater was #10 and the CU pigtail was #12. One other item I would like youre opinion on...why wouldnt the inspectors in my area be willing to do pigtail inspections unless I use the "COPALUM" method?

 

[celtic]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Originally posted by Linearelectric:


If you look at the listing ....

What listing and where?
I just looked at the Ideal site and I couldn't find what you are referring to.
I did find this: http://www.idealindustries.com/pdf/Twister%20AL-CU%20Compliance%20Document.pdf ~ Compliance Verification Document, dated 10/18/2000
Which states:

The IDEAL Model #65 TWISTER? AL/CU Wire Connector, when used in accordance with the instructions included with the product provides a safe, effective, legal, and permanent solution to the problem of connecting copper conductors to existing aluminum branch circuit wiring.

The IDEAL Model #65 TWISTER? AL/CU Connector complies with the N.E.C. Section 110-14b for aluminum to copper connections, and Federal Specification W-S-610E, is UL 486C Listed, UL 467 Listed, UL 94V-2 flame rated, CSA C22.2 #188 Certified, and rated 105?C? (221?F?) for use in all branch circuit and fixture splicing applications.

These approvals have been in full-uninterrupted force since the day the connector was introduced and remain intact today. For further information please contact IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. at 1-800-435-0705.

Sincerely
IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC.

 

[charlie]

Re: aluminum wiring.

I just looked at the Ideal site and I couldn't find what you are referring to.

Then you follow it up by answering your own question.

 

[celtic]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Originally posted by charlie:

I just looked at the Ideal site and I couldn't find what you are referring to.

Then you follow it up by answering your own question.

Did I?

I still can't see it :

Originally posted by Linearelectric:
Pierre

If you look at the listing for the "Ideal #65 purple twister" it clearly states that "the wirenut is not intended for complete home retrofit".

the product provides a ...permanent solution .. of connecting copper..to existing aluminum ....

Where is it "clearly not intended"?
Can someone translate corporate-speak for me?

 

[charlie]

Re: aluminum wiring.

I'll try. ". . . when used in accordance with the instructions included with the product . . ." fits 110.3(B) and so does ". . . is UL 486C Listed, UL 467 Listed, UL 94V-2 flame rated . . . for use in all branch circuit and fixture splicing applications."

 

[Linearelectric]

Re: aluminum wiring.

web page

check that site and tell me they are still a good option

 

[pierre]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Linear
I am not sure why the inspectors on Long Island will not inspect the Listed connector, I think you will have to ask them.

Remember that report on the website was originally performed in '93, and as I have mentioned UL from MELVILLE LONG ISLAND has stated they have not seen any failures yet - right there in your back yard.

If you do not want to use these, I see nothing wrong with that, as this is America!!!

Remember, as I mentioned - these do take more care in the installation process, one cannot take a careless attitude when installing these.

And... I also agree that copper installation would be the best form of remediation, except that many people today cannot afford that, so something is better than nothing.

Just thinking: I know that salt water/air is a problem in some parts of Long Island, maybe that is why some inspectors will not inspect for these types of wirenuts.

 

[celtic]

Re: aluminum wiring.

Originally posted by charlie:
I'll try. ". . . when used in accordance with the instructions included with the product . . ."

Well that's not "clear"...the instructions are not "included" on the page