sparks27
Member
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
hey guys, new guy here. I have a homeowner wanting to change the al. wire in his home. I'm looking for alternatives.I've spliced copper onto the al. ends and put noalox on. is there other things I can do?
aluminum wiring.
- Thread starter sparks27
- Start date
- Status
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: aluminum wiring.
If you do a search of the NEC section of the forum there were some previous posts that talked about proper splicing methods for aluminum wiring. I did a search for "aluminum wiring" and came up with 21 hits.
If you do a search of the NEC section of the forum there were some previous posts that talked about proper splicing methods for aluminum wiring. I did a search for "aluminum wiring" and came up with 21 hits.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: aluminum wiring.
To the best of my knowledge, there are two ways of splicing the old aluminum wire to copper wire and that is not one of them. You are opening yourself up for a lot of liability doing it your way because of using non-listed connectors and methods.
To the best of my knowledge, there are two ways of splicing the old aluminum wire to copper wire and that is not one of them. You are opening yourself up for a lot of liability doing it your way because of using non-listed connectors and methods.
Re: aluminum wiring.
I just went through the same thing a couple of months ago. There are only three ways that i know of that insurance companies will accept.
One is to replace all of the devices with those that are al/cu rated. Not the best way as a new homwe owner could re[lace a defective device with one not rated. one other is to splice using an approve device and tool that only AMP supplies. The problem is they reqyuire training on this tool and must rent the tool from them. The cost is about $1,800. for training and rental plus the installation cost. Expensive.
The best but most costly is to rewire. This is the option my home owner chose. NMost Ins. companies will not insure alum wired homes unless one of these methods is used.
I just went through the same thing a couple of months ago. There are only three ways that i know of that insurance companies will accept.
One is to replace all of the devices with those that are al/cu rated. Not the best way as a new homwe owner could re[lace a defective device with one not rated. one other is to splice using an approve device and tool that only AMP supplies. The problem is they reqyuire training on this tool and must rent the tool from them. The cost is about $1,800. for training and rental plus the installation cost. Expensive.
The best but most costly is to rewire. This is the option my home owner chose. NMost Ins. companies will not insure alum wired homes unless one of these methods is used.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: aluminum wiring.
In my opinion
here is how I would present this to a prospective customer.
1. Rewire with copper. Most expensive method
2. The Tyco- Amp Copalum connections. Next most expensive method
3. Ideal's Model 65 Purple Twister wirenut. The next inline for cost.
4. Co/lar (Aluminum rated devices). the next to least expensive cost
5. Run like XXXX as these jobs can be very tough due to the uncontrolled consumer tampering with the work after completion. Least expensive
[ May 07, 2005, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
In my opinion
here is how I would present this to a prospective customer.
1. Rewire with copper. Most expensive method
2. The Tyco- Amp Copalum connections. Next most expensive method
3. Ideal's Model 65 Purple Twister wirenut. The next inline for cost.
4. Co/lar (Aluminum rated devices). the next to least expensive cost
5. Run like XXXX as these jobs can be very tough due to the uncontrolled consumer tampering with the work after completion. Least expensive
[ May 07, 2005, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Re: aluminum wiring.
In my area and what I found when doing research is that the purple 65 are no longer accepted as there are to many documented failures.
But you are correct in your listing of methods.
had i had to do it over again i would have taken your last suggestion. Run.
even a small home can get quite expensive and this does not make the home owner very happy. If they are thinking of buying a home with alum wire i would stongly discourage.
In my area and what I found when doing research is that the purple 65 are no longer accepted as there are to many documented failures.
But you are correct in your listing of methods.
had i had to do it over again i would have taken your last suggestion. Run.
even a small home can get quite expensive and this does not make the home owner very happy. If they are thinking of buying a home with alum wire i would stongly discourage.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: aluminum wiring.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: aluminum wiring.
If they want to replace the wiring with copper why try to find alternatives. That is the best way to go. Not only will they get rid of the aluminum, they will also get wiring to current code which will mean more circuits and more receptacles. Just a better installation overall.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: aluminum wiring.
If he wants to replace it why fight it ? It is great money.Usually can be done in an air conditioned house.Best way to price it is T and M .This is best for everyone.A rule of thumb i use is one box or outlet per hour for 1 journeyman and a good helper.Warn them that a few holes will likely be needed.A patch man for a few hours is far cheaper than your hours to not make any.If my memory serves me right aluminum wiring came out in late 60's and many homes still had real plaster ,not drywall.Give him some kind of estimate first.Could easily reach 10 grand
If he wants to replace it why fight it ? It is great money.Usually can be done in an air conditioned house.Best way to price it is T and M .This is best for everyone.A rule of thumb i use is one box or outlet per hour for 1 journeyman and a good helper.Warn them that a few holes will likely be needed.A patch man for a few hours is far cheaper than your hours to not make any.If my memory serves me right aluminum wiring came out in late 60's and many homes still had real plaster ,not drywall.Give him some kind of estimate first.Could easily reach 10 grand
sparks27
Member
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
Re: aluminum wiring.
hey, thanks for the Ideas I can see the problem with trying to work with aluminum. I think I'll try to work on the total replacment angle. i'm not going to try to gaurantee any work if they dont change all of the al. wire. and thanks for the info on the al.rated purple wire nuts! shouldn't there be rated al/cu devices already installed??
hey, thanks for the Ideas I can see the problem with trying to work with aluminum. I think I'll try to work on the total replacment angle. i'm not going to try to gaurantee any work if they dont change all of the al. wire. and thanks for the info on the al.rated purple wire nuts! shouldn't there be rated al/cu devices already installed??
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: aluminum wiring.
The Twister? Al/Cu Wire Connector is indeed acceptable for connecting copper and aluminum conductors (you need to page down to pick up the Purple 65 connectors).
The Twister? Al/Cu Wire Connector is indeed acceptable for connecting copper and aluminum conductors (you need to page down to pick up the Purple 65 connectors).
Re: aluminum wiring.
What i am saying about the twister and purple65 is that most of the counties and localities in my area won't accept them ( i have been throough this that id why i know) and when you check with ins. companies most will only insure if wiring as been changed to copper.
What i am saying about the twister and purple65 is that most of the counties and localities in my area won't accept them ( i have been throough this that id why i know) and when you check with ins. companies most will only insure if wiring as been changed to copper.
Re: aluminum wiring.
Even though some of these wirenut type of devices are "rated" for the application The Consumer product safety division does not recommend it. That being said it is pretty likely that Tyco had some influence in this decision.
Either way I personally would not do anything but the whole house rewire or tyco-amp. I would not to the Tyco amp thing unless I had to only because I don't like being forced into the costs that Tyco requires since they are the only one to make this connector and tool.
[ May 08, 2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: shelco ]
Even though some of these wirenut type of devices are "rated" for the application The Consumer product safety division does not recommend it. That being said it is pretty likely that Tyco had some influence in this decision.
Either way I personally would not do anything but the whole house rewire or tyco-amp. I would not to the Tyco amp thing unless I had to only because I don't like being forced into the costs that Tyco requires since they are the only one to make this connector and tool.
[ May 08, 2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: shelco ]
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: aluminum wiring.
I tend to agree, the only good solution is to remove all the old aluminum wire. By the way, I like the new electrical grade aluminum alloys that are used now.
I tend to agree, the only good solution is to remove all the old aluminum wire. By the way, I like the new electrical grade aluminum alloys that are used now.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: aluminum wiring.
Long Islang NY has a lot of aluminum wiring. There are a lot of electricians using the Twister wirenut by Ideal.
UL has an office in Melville Long Island, so I called them. They have not had one reported failure of the Twister wirenut, not one...
I have read the whole report on the CPSC website. It was performed in '93 and they did not test any of the Twister wirenuts, if you blow up the pictures in the report, you will see they are the "B" cap type wirenuts. And the report was put together by a Home Inspector, not a scientist.
Show me some proof as to why these are not any good... other than a hoax. It never ceases to amaze me how people will totally believe a story without looking into it. I have learned in my years to find the truth before I spread any rumours.
BTW- there are a lot of people who cannot afford to rewire their homes, I think the wirenut is a good resolve if they cannot afford a rewire.
Long Islang NY has a lot of aluminum wiring. There are a lot of electricians using the Twister wirenut by Ideal.
UL has an office in Melville Long Island, so I called them. They have not had one reported failure of the Twister wirenut, not one...
I have read the whole report on the CPSC website. It was performed in '93 and they did not test any of the Twister wirenuts, if you blow up the pictures in the report, you will see they are the "B" cap type wirenuts. And the report was put together by a Home Inspector, not a scientist.
Show me some proof as to why these are not any good... other than a hoax. It never ceases to amaze me how people will totally believe a story without looking into it. I have learned in my years to find the truth before I spread any rumours.
BTW- there are a lot of people who cannot afford to rewire their homes, I think the wirenut is a good resolve if they cannot afford a rewire.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: aluminum wiring.
Pierre, I agree.
But the one issue I see with the Purple Twisters is that they are rated for (1)CU to (1)AL only.
This can be very hard to accomplish, and may require quite a few 'Nuts' in the box.
If at all possible, I would go for the complete rewire.
I'm just trying to defend product that some entity is trying to put down for their own personal gain.
Shelco, I'm sorry about your luck, but whoever is making those decisions is grossly mis-informed.
Pierre, I agree.
But the one issue I see with the Purple Twisters is that they are rated for (1)CU to (1)AL only.
This can be very hard to accomplish, and may require quite a few 'Nuts' in the box.
If at all possible, I would go for the complete rewire.
I'm just trying to defend product that some entity is trying to put down for their own personal gain.
Shelco, I'm sorry about your luck, but whoever is making those decisions is grossly mis-informed.
Re: aluminum wiring.
Exactly my point Pierre...a comment without verification becomes just another rumor...which FAR too many believe to be true.
See Urban Legends for more rumors that have become "truth"
Exactly my point Pierre...a comment without verification becomes just another rumor...which FAR too many believe to be true.
See Urban Legends for more rumors that have become "truth"
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: aluminum wiring.
I like Pierre's comment, ". . . these jobs can be very tough due to the uncontrolled consumer tampering with the work after completion." If it were not for that, I like the Ideal Purple 65 connector for doing it right and without spending a lot of cash.
I like Pierre's comment, ". . . these jobs can be very tough due to the uncontrolled consumer tampering with the work after completion." If it were not for that, I like the Ideal Purple 65 connector for doing it right and without spending a lot of cash.
Re: aluminum wiring.
1 #10 AL sol. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol.
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #12 CU
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #14 CU
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #16 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #12 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #14 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #10 CU sol.
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #10 CU str.
1 #12 AL sol. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol or str
1 #12 AL str. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol.
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #12 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #12 CU
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #14 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #14 CU
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #18 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #16 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #18 CU
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #16 CU
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #18 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #16 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #18 CU
I see lots of 2 AL to 1 CU and 1 AL to 2 CU listed in the range of this nut at the Ideal page.
I dunno what you read, but I read:
1 #10 AL sol. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol.
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #12 CU
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #14 CU
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #16 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #12 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #14 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #10 CU sol.
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #10 CU str.
1 #12 AL sol. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol or str
1 #12 AL str. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol.
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #12 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #12 CU
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #14 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #14 CU
1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #18 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #16 CU
2 #10 AL sol. w/1 #18 CU
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #16 CU
1 #12 AL w/1 or 2 #18 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #16 CU
2 #12 AL sol. w/1 #18 CU
I see lots of 2 AL to 1 CU and 1 AL to 2 CU listed in the range of this nut at the Ideal page.
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