AFCI/GFCI Lighting Issues

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Squish

Member
Location
Poughkeepsie, NY, Dutchess
Occupation
IBEW Electrician
Good Evening my fellow sparkies,

I come to you all with a mystery. I installed a Leviton load center for my basement/ mother daughter living area. I have two separate circuits for LED lighting and I ran into a bit of an issue this afternoon.

When I ran the carpenters circular saw, my two lighting circuits tripped in the GF position even though the outlet I was using was on a separate circuit.

I then tried to connect to another outlet with no other loads attached. Ran the saw and both lighting circuits tripped again.

I thought perhaps it was an issue with the AFCI/GFCI breakers. I turned on every circuits (22) in all with no loads other than the lighting load and ran the saw again to test the issue with the other breakers. Again, only the lighting load tripped when running the saw.

Finally, I replaced the AFCI/GFCI breakers with normal 20A breakers and no issues with the saw.
Just curious is anyone has an explanation as to what the issue can be, because I am fresh out of ideas.
 
Last edited:
mtnelect

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
This might help to explain.
 

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  • NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE 2023 - Section 200.4(C) Proposed Amendment.pdf
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L

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
mtnelect said:
This might help to explain.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't this isnt useful to this at all don't push it on people it won't answer these issues at all and will give false hope to people

The AFCI can nuisance trip when on different circuits of the the load that's causing the short. Lighting on the utility side often does this. Now are you sure that you're on a different circuit is there a chance you are on the same one? Try this on the bath outlet circuit.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
mtnelect said:
This might help to explain.
Click to expand...
I see nothing in the OP that suggests an issue with a crossed neutral. Are you saying that is the problem? These Leviton Load Centers have terminals at each breaker position for both the hot and neutral conductors for each circuit making it difficult to screw up wiring 2 wire circuits.
 
S

Squish

Member
Location
Poughkeepsie, NY, Dutchess
Occupation
IBEW Electrician
letgomywago said:
No it doesn't this isnt useful to this at all don't push it on people it won't answer these issues at all and will give false hope to people

The AFCI can nuisance trip when on different circuits of the the load that's causing the short. Lighting on the utility side often does this. Now are you sure that you're on a different circuit is there a chance you are on the same one? Try this on the bath outlet circuit.
Click to expand...
I can tell you for certain it’s on separate circuits because I ran the all the wires myself this week. Again I tried this on a separate circuit with the same issue. For perspective this is an empty basement with no load attached to any of the devices.
 
mtnelect

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
The OP stated that he installed a 22-circuit new load center, which I interpreted to be to existing circuits. Which means a possibility of crossed neutrals.
 
L

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
mtnelect said:
The OP stated that he installed a 22-circuit new load center, which I interpreted to be to existing circuits. Which means a possibility of crossed neutrals.
Click to expand...
Nope it wouldn't explain the issue the breakers reset its just that the table saw trips it. You should work with afcis for a bit longer and see what actually happens with them like those of us who do residential electrical every day do. HVAC and electrical interactions you'd probably run circles around us. AFCI issues aren't what you think they are.

OP I really think you have the arc signature being picked up by near by breakers can you try to put them in on opposite ends of the buss this sometimes helps that issue.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
This sounds like another recent AFCI thread. I think the feeder neutral received the most blame.
 
S

Squish

Member
Location
Poughkeepsie, NY, Dutchess
Occupation
IBEW Electrician
letgomywago said:
Nope it wouldn't explain the issue the breakers reset its just that the table saw trips it. You should work with afcis for a bit longer and see what actually happens with them like those of us who do residential electrical every day do. HVAC and electrical interactions you'd probably run circles around us. AFCI issues aren't what you think they are.

OP I really think you have the arc signature being picked up by near by breakers can you try to put them in on opposite ends of the buss this sometimes helps that issue.
Click to expand...
For more context, almost every breaker in this panel is AFCI/GFCI combo and is off at the moment during this test. I tried 2-3 different dedicated circuits replicating the trip with no other load. Every time this saw goes on, the circuit that the saw is plugged into stays on and the lighting trips.
 
L

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
Squish said:
For more context, almost every breaker in this panel is AFCI/GFCI combo and is off at the moment during this test. I tried 2-3 different dedicated circuits replicating the trip with no other load. Every time this saw goes on, the circuit that the saw is plugged into stays on and the lighting trips.
Click to expand...
Can you put a few amps more on the circuit like was mentioned before with a heater or dryer? I think it's picking up the arc signature through the buss and feeder. But this can rule out if it is a nuetral issue but just under the line for the 5ma
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Squish said:
Every time this saw goes on, the circuit that the saw is plugged into stays on and the lighting trips
Click to expand...
Sounds like there is an issue with the technology built into these new Leviton circuit breakers. The saw should not trip circuit breakers that are not connected to the circuit the saw is on.

Squish when you have a minute please update your profile to include your occupation.
 
R

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Didn’t the “big boys” (Eaton, Schneider, etc) make a change to their AFCIs to stop looking for arcs until there is a minimum current flow ( like 4A) on the circuit exactly for this reason, or am I mis-remembering?

An LED lighting circuit is probably below this level. Maybe Leviton’s are lacking this logic?
 
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