480 v 3 phase blower motor

Status
Not open for further replies.

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
I missed that this was a car wash. Ahh, memories... Not all good. I had 3 clients over the years who built car washes and in fact I once considered building one as a side business, they can be surprisingly profitable if you find the right location.

A common way this is done, depending on local weather conditions, is for the drying blowers to have heaters inside. That's because if someone goes through on a day when humidity is really high, it doesnt dry the car. Or if the air temperature is already low, the high speed of the blower air can bring it down to below freezing on the metal surfaces of the car and cause ice, which leaves water spots after it melts. Either condition ends up bringing the customer back for a freebie. So the heater coils are added to the blowers. But it takes too long for the elements to heat up if turned off so when there are multiple cars, they are left on in between. That then means that the blowers must ALSO be left on, otherwise with zero air flow across the heaters, they burn out. So in between cars they will have a VFD that drops the blower speed down to a minimum flow level deemed necessary to protect the heater elements. If there is no VFD, the blowers might be two speed, same reason. If that's the case, you would have 2 or 3 contactors per motor, depending on the type of 2 speed motor used.

Cheap versions of this just use ATL for the blowers, but attempt to use delayed Off commands combined with the spin-down time of the blowers as a buffer to maintain some air flow across the heaters. That never works out in my experience and the symptom of that not working is that the motors over heat because they are constantly being cycled on and off. That may very well be what you have going on here, because you have the symptom and you mentioned timers. The timers would be part of a two speed starter as well, but it's not likely that you would have these symptoms if that were the case. If that's what is going on, nuisance tripping of overloads and the eventual loss of the motors is just going to have to be considered a cost of doing business on the cheap (false economy really), unless the owner is willing to pony up for a more expensive initial outlay for an upgrade. There are aftermarket car wash control system builders who specialize in exactly that by the way.

You cannot do this with a soft starter by the way. I tried, same result as above. Soft starters, contrary to what some salesmen will tell you, do NOT reduce motor heating from high duty cycle. The watts wasted as heat in starting the motor are lowered because the current is reduced, but the amount of time it takes place is extended at the same time, so the net ENERGY given up as heat in the motor stays the same (debated by some that it might actually be more, but it's my opinion that it nets out as equal).
Wanna say you are saying exactly what we have been dealing with in paragraph 2 . They ran on off constantly and the first problem was nsi/polaris connectors at motor were failing. Customer was told split bolt wouldnt have done this . I personally changed all 72. Very small s/bolts. Then thermal protection failed then 2 disconnects. I asked the customer to find out if they can be changed to "coast" before any connections were replaced. He the blowers were set up correctly. To common sense should tell him like it did me, if the melting is that bad and "normal" this will never last. My last trip there all is well they never shut completely everything test normal. He told me he did change the setting after my recomendation but now thinks 10 thhn was too small for these motors. Even if it was then why does everything work now. ..
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Besoeker,
That is of course hotter than most would consider to be safe to touch, but that is a machine guarding issue,
It is not safe to touch. There is no consider about it.

I've been around quite a long time and in quite a few places including USA. From Taiwan to Turkey. Dubai to Durban. Libya to Lyon. Dealt with motors from a couple of kW to several MW. And a lot of plant including paper mills, steel rolling mills, pumping stations, submarines, dockyards........
I have yet to see a motor fenced off to be out of reach of personnel because it was so hot it could cause serious burns.

Perhaps I've just led a sheltered life. But I'm not about to stick my hands in boiling water.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
I have yet to see a motor fenced off to be out of reach of personnel because it was so hot it could cause serious burns.

Perhaps I've just led a sheltered life. But I'm not about to stick my hands in boiling water.
You young kids ... sheltered life ... B, no, I know from earlier posts you aren't wet behind the ears.<g>.

I deal in the industrial hydraulics world. MANY valve solenoid coils are well over "touch safe" levels ... one manufacturer warns that 150C may be expected in normal operation for a particular product. But ... I thought that 60C (140F) was the touch safe limit? Many components, including most motors, exceed that.

Safety guys frequently fence hydraulic installations, but in my experience it just involves warning of high temperatures present.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You young kids ... sheltered life ... B, no, I know from earlier posts you aren't wet behind the ears.<g>.

I deal in the industrial hydraulics world. MANY valve solenoid coils are well over "touch safe" levels ... one manufacturer warns that 150C may be expected in normal operation for a particular product. But ... I thought that 60C (140F) was the touch safe limit? Many components, including most motors, exceed that.

Safety guys frequently fence hydraulic installations, but in my experience it just involves warning of high temperatures present.
Most people could probably touch a 140F object for short time and not get burned but depending on skin conditions at the touch point could not be in continuous contact to that temperature for extended time without having some injury. Those who do a lot of physical work and have calloused hands can probably take more abuse with those hands.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
You young kids ... sheltered life ... B, no, I know from earlier posts you aren't wet behind the ears.<g>.

I deal in the industrial hydraulics world. MANY valve solenoid coils are well over "touch safe" levels ... one manufacturer warns that 150C may be expected in normal operation for a particular product. But ... I thought that 60C (140F) was the touch safe limit? Many components, including most motors, exceed that.

Safety guys frequently fence hydraulic installations, but in my experience it just involves warning of high temperatures present.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4-Kkj53fWTIC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=electric+motor+case+temperature&source=bl&ots=976eilejoD&sig=r983drViLoSjnAjo9weNSjH_KOI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lu03VPmhG4vbavqrgJAM&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=electric%20motor%20case%20temperature&f=false

Note 2.2.3.6
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top