Recessed or surface ?

[James L]

The glowy-make-light part is not recessed. It is proud of the ceiling. I have recessed cans in my kitchen. The bulbs are clearly not below the surface of the ceiling. The white plastic piece from the link in post #12 is not a trim, it is the luminaire. What am I missing?

The problem is, the code seems to only address recessed and surface mounted lights. But these are in between, flush-mounted

 

[gadfly56]

The problem is, the code seems to only address recessed and surface mounted lights. But these are in between, flush-mounted

To me, "flush" means that the surface is smooth with the adjacent surface from one side of the fixture to the other. And to answer your previous questions, no, I would not consider a switch or receptacle to be flush mounted. The fixture box might be (or even recessed), but the bezel and operating portions are not flush. Maybe it's only a 1/16", but it's still not flush.

 

[James L]

To me, "flush" means that the surface is smooth with the adjacent surface from one side of the fixture to the other. And to answer your previous questions, no, I would not consider a switch or receptacle to be flush mounted. The fixture box might be (or even recessed), but the bezel and operating portions are not flush. Maybe it's only a 1/16", but it's still not flush.

I agree in a technical sense that flush means even.

But we use the word "flush" throughout our whole industry to mean something other than that.

A flush mounted breaker panel has a "flush" cover that sits on the front of the drywall.

And that is starkly contrasted against a surface mounted panel

 

[gadfly56]

I agree in a technical sense that flush means even.

But we use the word "flush" throughout our whole industry to mean something other than that.

A flush mounted breaker panel has a "flush" cover that sits on the front of the drywall.

And that is starkly contrasted against a surface mounted panel

I agree that there may be a common usage sense of "flush" that someone might use to describe a recess mounted breaker panel, but I don't think this more casual sense can be employed when you are talking about whether something meets a proscriptive code or standard requirement. In that case you would be better off being conservative in your installation, lest the AHJ make you do it over. Or talk to the AHJ first and get prior agreement.

As previously commented by others, this is an area that bears revision in the light of the realities of LED technology.

 

[SSDriver]

I agree with gadfly56. This is a surface mounted light. It is led and doesn't necessary pose any danger but it is a surface mounted light. Look at the attached picture from the link. In BOTH instances (on a j-box or a recessed light). The light fixture is still surface mounted to the ceiling. The issue with the standard surface mounted lights was two things. The heat radiating off of the light fixture and the possibility of someone hitting the light and breaking it. If the light was mounted close to the storage areas the cloths might catch on fire from either heat or a spark on the broken light. This light is still prone to breaking as it is surface mounted and the wires/components would not be recessed in an enclosure.

 

[SSDriver]

On a side note, I can totally see a DIY handyman installing these by simply drilling a hole in the ceiling an passing the wire through to romex. And then using silicone to hold them to the ceiling.

 

[James L]

In BOTH instances (on a j-box or a recessed light). The light fixture is still surface mounted to the ceiling.

Interesting that you think it's mounted to the ceiling.

I see it mounted to either a junction box or a recessed light housing. Not the ceiling in either scenario

 

[SSDriver]

Interesting that you think it's mounted to the ceiling.

I see it mounted to either a junction box or a recessed light housing. Not the ceiling in either scenario

Give me a break. Most light fixtures are "mounted" to the junction box and not to the ceiling. However they are still surface mounted in relation to the ceiling. My wording could have been better. The back of this light fixture (it is not trim it is a light fixture) is resting on the ceiling. It is not a recessed light fixture. They are merely using the exiting can light as a junction box.

EDIT: The only difference in the junction box mount vs the can light mount is that it is using clips of a sort instead of screws to secure it.

 

[James L]

Give me a break. Most light fixtures are "mounted" to the junction box and not to the ceiling. However they are still surface mounted in relation to the ceiling. My wording could have been better. The back of this light fixture (it is not trim it is a light fixture) is resting on the ceiling. It is not a recessed light fixture. They are merely using the exiting can light as a junction box.

EDIT: The only difference in the junction box mount vs the can light mount is that it is using clips of a sort instead of screws to secure it.

I agree it's not recessed.
It's also not surface mounted.
But those are the only options we're given.

A fluorescent strip light or wraparound are surface mount. They actually attach to the ceiling itself. And none of it is inside the ceiling. No connections are inside the ceiling.

I think there's a very clear way to define/describe surface mounting, and these are not.

The only reason I'm being so technical about it is to highlight how the NEC really has us in a bind on this one.

A very practical solution in the eyes of most, but along comes AHJ and sees the NEC only mentions recessed versus surface mounting, and he can see it's clearly not recessed. So what's he supposed to do?

As others have mentioned before, I think at a minimum the wording needs to be clarified or added to

 

[LarryFine]

If inspection is the issue, show one to the inspector and ask which rule he/she would apply to it.

 

[mwm1752]

The glowy-make-light part is not recessed. It is proud of the ceiling. I have recessed cans in my kitchen. The bulbs are clearly not below the surface of the ceiling. The white plastic piece from the link in post #12 is not a trim, it is the luminaire. What am I missing?

Your open bulbs recess trims could not be installed in a closet. They make enclosed recess trims that are proud of the ceiling & it does not make it a surface mount fixture & could also be installed in a closet. You are missing the installation method used IMO-

 

[mwm1752]

Give me a break. Most light fixtures are "mounted" to the junction box and not to the ceiling. However they are still surface mounted in relation to the ceiling. My wording could have been better. The back of this light fixture (it is not trim it is a light fixture) is resting on the ceiling. It is not a recessed light fixture. They are merely using the exiting can light as a junction box.

EDIT: The only difference in the junction box mount vs the can light mount is that it is using clips of a sort instead of screws to secure it.

I would have no issue informing you 12" clearances is minimum per your comments. but it is interesting as you completely ignore that the recess can is a fixture & I would have issue with you mounting a fixture to a fixture & not a j box. Looking at the install instructions I do not believe the interior of the recess can is listed as a j box. Most conversion kit have fittings that adapt to the screw shell alternative. Can of worms just opened up. Time to research

 

[James L]

I would have no issue informing you 12" clearances is minimum per your comments. but it is interesting as you completely ignore that the recess can is a fixture & I would have issue with you mounting a fixture to a fixture & not a j box. Looking at the install instructions I do not believe the interior of the recess can is listed as a j box. Most conversion kit have fittings that adapt to the screw shell alternative. Can of worms just opened up. Time to research

Very interesting point about mounting a fixture to a fixture

 

[SSDriver]

I would have no issue informing you 12" clearances is minimum per your comments. but it is interesting as you completely ignore that the recess can is a fixture & I would have issue with you mounting a fixture to a fixture & not a j box. Looking at the install instructions I do not believe the interior of the recess can is listed as a j box. Most conversion kit have fittings that adapt to the screw shell alternative. Can of worms just opened up. Time to research

Yes I know its not a j-box and the picture I posted (from that manufacture that the OP posted) shows them using an E26 adapter and WIRENUTS in the old fixture. Hence using it as a j-box. I didn't say it was a j-box I said they were using it as a j-box. They are literally having you install wire nuts inside of the existing can light and mounting this new fixture to it (with some type of clips). This doesn't mean it is now a junction box but they are asking the installer to utilize the old can light in the same fashion as an electrician would use a j-box. I do think this install might be(could possibly be) violating the original listing of the existing can light, and I agree with you that this could be opening up a can of worms :0.

 

[Greentagger]

Thanks for all the input.

 

[readydave8]

The glowy-make-light part

I love it, got a chuckle, hope I remember so I can use

 

[gadfly56]

I love it, got a chuckle, hope I remember so I can use

What can I say? Shakespeare, watch your back.

 

[Flicker Index]

Whether it makes logical sense or not, without some clear language, surface/flush/recessed can fall in the grey area.
If the "use of can" is the deciding factor, you could arguably say that a 4' x 2' wrap is a "surface" if it's installed over a can and fed from the can with a medium edison pigtail.

Please note that the end result is the same with respect to the profile of the lens and guts relative to the surface of the ceiling. "Inside the can" doesn't really mean inside the can. If you take a straight edge and run it across the ceiling over the fixture and hit anything other than trim, it seems to me that it is, at best, semi-flush.

Even "recessed" types use the flange that is on the room side of the ceiling as LED/ballast heatsink. So it's not the same as "decorative trim" ring that clips on around a normal can. This technically makes it a "flush mount" because functionally essential parts of luminaire are not entirely kept above the ceiling. If this can be considered recessed, why not those surface mounted 2'x2' square panel?

 

[WasGSOHM]

And it puts out ~1/5 of the watts than an incandescent, so it runs cool.

 

[mwm1752]

And it puts out ~1/5 of the watts than an incandescent, so it runs cool.

True but not in the scope of job description to make National testing lab decisions.