Would capping off live wires be considered securing a circuit.

Another C10

Electrical Contractor 1987 - present
Location
Southern Cal
Occupation
Electrician NEC 2020
What does "securing a circuit" actually mean?
Safed off was a term commonly used in my world, it basically meant no live wiring was exposed to short out or to bite someone. Also if some one was to die lets say from an electricians exposed wires that became energized, that electrician could get charged for involuntary man slaughter .. serious business.

My ol Instructor use to always tell us ... always assume the circuit is hot, test with a wiggy or volt ohm meter

My share to you .. Never use a tick tracer aka a widow maker, they are good for quick checks but if your handling the conductors make sure there is nothing on them, I've even used a screw driver to quickly graze a hot to neutral to make sure I had no pop.
 

James Lee

Member
Location
Dallas Texas
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
All my career I've worked with live circuits, unsecured and secured and it's as simple as putting a wire cap-nut on the end of a live wire, Electrical 101 Identifying Line-Load-Neutral-Ground etc... in fact I know a neutral will get you killed more often than a hot wire will, I was taught to respect electricity and to work every wire like it's hot, in fact recently something I hadn't ran into in years, a live ground wire, yes you would think the breaker would trip or initiation source would be disengaged or fuse blown but not always the case, I consistently check voltage even when I know the power has been shut off even by myself.
 
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sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
We had to do a Live/Dead/Live check and have PPE on before for the expected voltage. If live couldn't work on circuit until LO/TO or written permission and still had to do the L/D/L again.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Electrician - 2017 NEC
in fact I know a neutral will get you killed more often than a hot wire will, I was taught to respect electricity and to work every wire like it's hot,
Your are not correct. There is no difference. So if you did disregard a loaded neutral then the statistical legality would be equal to that of a line conductor. If an untrained person were to come in contact with a neutral the statistically likely hood of electrocution would be less than the line since a neutral has the possibility of having zero potential if the load is off. If its always on then again its equal to line, not more.

The only way the likely hood of being electrocuted by a neutral could be more is if people misunderstand and treat it differently, and in that case they are not following the last part of your statement.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Electrician - 2017 NEC
When we implemented the strict no live work policy, I went to the CEO and requested that all of our guys should have circuit tracers to remain in compliance. He agreed, and we supply circuit tracers to all of our service guys, and new construction foremen. We have two levels of tracers, one that traces live only, and one that traces live and dead circuits. Once they have proven themselves, they graduate to the better tracer. New hires are bad to lose their tracers right before they quit or get fired, so they get the cheap one until they appear to be a good hire.
I find it ironic your company enforces strictly safety standards and then discriminates the quality of safety equipment they give their people. Seems counter intuitive and a carrot and stick approach to safety. If safety is important don't all deserve the same quality? I know you say live vs dead, but you also described it as "better".
 

Jamesco

Senior Member
Location
Iowa
@ James Lee,

Is the co worker a JW or an apprentice?
If apprentice was he working under your supervision?
What is your job classification? JW? Working JW foreman? Were you in charge of the job?

In your OP you mentioned the supervisor. Is he management like a project manager. Or is he a JW with a title like foreman, general foreman, or shop superintendent?

When I arrived at the job site my supervisor arrived around the same time, he was acting frantic and asked me to turn off the power, I asked him where do you turn the power off at, he replied '' I don't know,''
Just a guess he didn't ask you to turn off the power, he told you to turn off the power.
"capping" off the circuit wiring, pushing them back in the hand hole, and replacing the cover was a good first step on your part. Common sense you wouldn't want to leave live wires hanging out of the hand hole of the light pole. You still needed to satisfy the supervisor's directive to "turn off the power". The supervisor gave you a direct order. At that point your job was to find the feed of the branch circuit/s, turn off the breaker/s and tag and lock them off. The job is officially shut down.

Post #59

I was written up for not securing the circuit.
Is that the actual wording in the document? Or does it say you didn't follows the verbal orders given to you by the supervisor?

.
 

James Lee

Member
Location
Dallas Texas
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Your are not correct. There is no difference. So if you did disregard a loaded neutral then the statistical legality would be equal to that of a line conductor. If an untrained person were to come in contact with a neutral the statistically likely hood of electrocution would be less than the line since a neutral has the possibility of having zero potential if the load is off. If its always on then again its equal to line, not more.

The only way the likely hood of being electrocuted by a neutral could be more is if people misunderstand and treat it differently, and in that case they are not following the last part of your statement.
More clarification on a neutral conductor sir, there are some instances where the neutral conductor is shared with other circuits, in these situations even though your circuit may be turned off you still have a high potential of getting shocked or electrocuted on an open neutral - back feed or alternating current.
Thank you
James Lee
 

James Lee

Member
Location
Dallas Texas
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
@ James Lee,

Is the co worker a JW or an apprentice?
If apprentice was he working under your supervision?
What is your job classification? JW? Working JW foreman? Were you in charge of the job?

In your OP you mentioned the supervisor. Is he management like a project manager. Or is he a JW with a title like foreman, general foreman, or shop superintendent?



Just a guess he didn't ask you to turn off the power, he told you to turn off the power.
"capping" off the circuit wiring, pushing them back in the hand hole, and replacing the cover was a good first step on your part. Common sense you wouldn't want to leave live wires hanging out of the hand hole of the light pole. You still needed to satisfy the supervisor's directive to "turn off the power". The supervisor gave you a direct order. At that point your job was to find the feed of the branch circuit/s, turn off the breaker/s and tag and lock them off. The job is officially shut down.

Post #59



Is that the actual wording in the document? Or does it say you didn't follows the verbal orders given to you by the supervisor?

.
Did not secure the circuit.
 

Jamesco

Senior Member
Location
Iowa
What does that mean?
Per the supervisor's instructions the OP was told to, "turn off the power" to the circuits. The OP didn't follow the supervisor's instructions.

When I arrived at the job site my supervisor arrived around the same time, he was acting frantic and asked me to turn off the power,
Asked, to turn off the power? Or told to turn off the power? Splitting hairs?
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
I find it ironic your company enforces strictly safety standards and then discriminates the quality of safety equipment they give their people. Seems counter intuitive and a carrot and stick approach to safety. If safety is important don't all deserve the same quality? I know you say live vs dead, but you also described it as "better".
If the new hires wouldn’t steal them, they would get the upgrade too. If you have many employees at where you work, you would know this. When seven out of ten applicants can’t pass the drug test, knowing they are getting tested, tells how bad the market is. I don’t know of any other company that will spend several hundred thousand dollars to buy a piece of equipment they are not required to.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Per the supervisor's instructions the OP was told to, "turn off the power" to the circuits. The OP didn't follow the supervisor's instructions.
James Lee still has not said that is what secure power means as it was written in the report.
 

James Lee

Member
Location
Dallas Texas
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
What does that mean?
Looks like they don't understand a secured circuit, it's OK I have plenty of back up support.
co-worker is a Lead, I got to the job that day which he was in charge of, a few weeks earlier I had reported to the supervisor he had gotten shocked at the same job site, different part of the bldg,
supervisor was clearly past the safety boundaries established by the NFPA (next to the light pole) where the cw got shocked so I secured the circuit and closed it up so no one else would get injured or worse.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Looks like they don't understand a secured circuit, it's OK I have plenty of back up support.
co-worker is a Lead, I got to the job that day which he was in charge of, a few weeks earlier I had reported to the supervisor he had gotten shocked at the same job site, different part of the bldg,
supervisor was clearly past the safety boundaries established by the NFPA (next to the light pole) where the cw got shocked so I secured the circuit and closed it up so no one else would get injured or worse.
It's been asked many times in this thread so in your opinion securing the circuit was accomplished by installing the wire nuts on the bare ends of the spliced conductors?
 

Jamesco

Senior Member
Location
Iowa
turn off the power
James Lee still has not said that is what secure power means as it was written in the report.
True. The circuits were secured and electrically safe from being an electrical shock hazard.

But the circuit/s were still energized. The supervisor told him to turn them off. "turn off the power"

We are not privy to the wording of the entire report.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
turn off the power

True. The circuits were secured and electrically safe from being an electrical shock hazard.

But the circuit/s were still energized. The supervisor told him to turn them off. "turn off the power"

We are not privy to the wording of the entire report.
The report didn't say he refused to turn off the power it said that he didn't secure the circuit, without knowing what that means everything is just word games.
 
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