Upgrading house from rg 59

RUB

New User
Location
Springfield, Mo
Occupation
Retired
my house, built in 1983, has in wall rg 59 to tv access. I cannot get all channels from Verizon and they tell me that it is because my in house cable is antiquated. I am agreeable to updating to whatever is necessary (cable rg6, cat 6, etc) to be compatible with current requirements but I am completely confused as to the best way to go. Any recommendations? I would hire an electrician but want to be as knowledgeable as I can.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Kind of depends on what kind of signal you need to transfer along the wires and what will be on both ends. Might be your best choice overall is fiber but that would require a lot of converters and whatnot. You really need to sit down with someone who does this for a living and figure out what's best for your situation. Or even what will work in your situation.

Probably a typical electrician is not the best choice for this.
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
my house, built in 1983, has in wall rg 59 to tv access. I cannot get all channels from Verizon and they tell me that it is because my in house cable is antiquated.
Your existing problems may be due to improper terminations, stubs, etc. that cause reflections and extra loss on the existing cable system, as well as the limited bandwidth and higher loss of the RG-59 cable itself.
I would think that RG-6 should be adequate unless you have runs exceeding 100 feet or so.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
You need RG-6. How it gets installed depends on how someone will run it from point A to point B. If there is an attic or open basement then it can be fished up/down the walls as needed.
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
You need RG-6. How it gets installed depends on how someone will run it from point A to point B. If there is an attic or open basement then it can be fished up/down the walls as needed.
But with only an attic, it may not be practical to fish most exterior walls because of the low access clearance at those edges.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Probably the first question that should be asked is how many and where the TVs are.

And this topic should be moved to the LV forum, doesn't belong here.

-Hal
 

rnatalie

Senior Member
Location
Catawba, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Might as well pull cat 6 (or at least 5e). As soon as the GigFiber shows up (Miss Utility was here marking already), I'm ditching the satellite dish (which has gotten progressively worse over the last five years.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I would also point out that many of the fittings that for commonly used with RG59 are not suitable for the higher bandwidth that modern cable systems need. it's pretty much rip it out and start over kind of thing.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I am agreeable to updating to whatever is necessary (cable rg6, cat 6, etc) to be compatible with current requirements but I am completely confused as to the best way to go. Any recommendations? I would hire an electrician but want to be as knowledgeable as I can.
I think you would be alright with an electrician if you only allow him to run new cable. You would use RG-6 coax which he should provide. Electrician would run individual cables from each TV location to a central location which is usually in the basement or garage where the cable service comes into the house now. You then get Verizon to come in and put all the connectors on the cable ends, provide and install the necessary splitter(s) connect everything and see that everything works.

I'm surprised Verizon didn't offer to re-wire your house for you but that's probably because they typically don't install cables in walls. An electrician certainly should be able to do that part but the rest you need to have Verizon do.

Got it?

-Hal
 

myspark

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
my house, built in 1983, has in wall rg 59 to tv access. I cannot get all channels from Verizon and they tell me that it is because my in house cable is antiquated. I am agreeable to updating to whatever is necessary (cable rg6, cat 6, etc) to be compatible with current requirements but I am completely confused as to the best way to go. Any recommendations? I would hire an electrician but want to be as knowledgeable as I can.
RG 59 was manufactured for over 2000 MHz.

RG stands for Radio Guide an old and forgotten military jargon.
Although it (RG 59) has higher loses compared to RG 6, it will work just fine in homes.
Coax cable was described/ introduced over one hundred fifty years ago. (1858)

English physicist and mathematician Oliver Heaviside first described it in 1880 and patented it.
It does have higher loses in almost any frequency. You may experience noticeable degradation--if your house is the size of three football fields.

In today’s application of coax cabling—we hardly introduce data speeds over 100 MHz .

If you have a chance of monitoring your data throughput—you will see that on a good day 70MHz to 90MHz is commonly encountered.

Although this cable is capable of handling 2000 MHz (RG 6) (according to manufacturer) data traffic at around 1000 MHz hasn’t really been implemented by ISPs. . . so it’s just setting in the shelves.

Someone alluded to TOKEN RING Topology . . .which is a non-sequitur to the discussion. . . . it is just a sort of name- dropping for the purpose of SHOCK and AWE.

Not related to the discussion but mentioning it will clarify the “mix up”

Some posters who are overzealous might say: Look I know something that you guys don’t. (bunk)

TOKEN RING using RG 59 is used in networking which has a distinct advantage over cat 3, cat 4, cat 5, cat5e cat 6.
Snake oil vendors claim it is faster than UTP cat 5 or cat5e.

The reality lies in the topology itself. Token ring doesn’t suffer from DATA COLLISION one major cause of slowdowns.

The token is always circulating in the network until requested by any member of the network. It is always “occupied” while UTP takes a pause. . . when command comes in, and other clients do the same thing. . . collision and bottle-necks occur.

Token rings are not encountered in homes unless you have multiple computers like ten units for example.

They are used in businesses where networked units are connected with servers and clients communicate with one another where efficiency is a must.
This is the first lesson in SCHOOL of NETWORKING as training along with frequency carriers and how packets are “made” and cued for delivery--along the network superhighway.
A lot of improvements have been given to this topology and most problems have been resolved.

With the arrival of 5G….and higher frequency --the damaged packets and errors that can cause slow-downs-- can be replaced and discarded promptly--with customers not ever noticing the “gaps” because of the speed of the frequency carrier.
This new technology including wireless-- accelerated the demise of TOKEN RING.

CANBUS is still using this technology on automobile operation/automation.


Note: This is not to say that you don’t have to replace the RG 59.
If you have the wherewithal to switch to a modern cable technology. . . I would certainly recommend it without opening walls to install the newer RG 6.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If you run your own cable and Comcast is your provider, don't bother terminating the cable ends. The installer will just cut the terminations off and install his own. They know that a high percentage of DIY failures are bad terminations and don't want to have to worry about that.
 

myspark

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
Its long been the standard here, Cable TV won't connect if its not R6 Quad.
It's no wonder they're losing business. T-MOBILE just merged with Sprint and we no longer need wires to watch TV, make phone calls and browse the internet.

This has been predicted . . . and with the arrival of 5-G, some ISPs will have to restructure their businesses.

I'm switching to T-Mobile web access and get rid of my OOMA subscription.
I can save over a $100 a month if I make the switch next week.
 

rnatalie

Senior Member
Location
Catawba, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
The connectors aren usually that much of a problem. Most TV stuff uses F (which stands for a common expletive for when you have to use one). The center "pin" is really the core of the coax to begin with.

What you absolutely can't use when you move from older cable TV stuff to the new digital stuff is the splitters. Most of those have only half the bandwidth required for the later stuff.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
RG 59 was manufactured for over 2000 MHz.
Coax isn't really manufactured for any particular frequency limit. How it works is the higher the frequency the higher the attenuation which means the shorter the cable. Taken another way, if you know how long your cable has to be, you choose one based on the highest frequency used and how low a signal you can tolerate at that frequency.

So sure, the old RG-59 can be used to 2Ghz but after 100 feet you would be over 16db down. (Most charts don't go over 1Ghz because that's considered the limit of it's usefulness.) This is similar to voltage drop on a pair of conductors, you can supply them with 120V but what is left at the other end when you consider the load. It works the same way- if you want to have the most voltage at the other end you use bigger wire or in this case a bigger lower loss cable.

With houses wired with the old RG-59, when you add up the cable attenuation and the loss through splitters and subtract that from the level that can be supplied from the street, it's not going to be high enough, particularly at the higher frequencies, for the cable box to work reliably with.


ts long been the standard here, Cable TV won't connect if its not R6 Quad.
Cable companies have their own specs and in cases where they insist on quad shield, it's usually because of egress. They are likely using frequencies that are in the aeronautical band and if allowed to leak can cause problems with aircraft navigation or landing systems. Cable companies are required to monitor for leakage and repair problems as soon as possible or face steep fines. This is another reason why DIY cable wiring and poorly maintained wiring is frowned on. If they find leakage coming from a house they will want a tech to go inside and check it out. If they cant get access they will disconnect the service.

If you run your own cable and Comcast is your provider, don't bother terminating the cable ends. The installer will just cut the terminations off and install his own. They know that a high percentage of DIY failures are bad terminations and don't want to have to worry about that.
Actually, the first thing a tech will do is cut the fittings off and replace them regardless of who put them on. They could have been installed by another of their techs the day before. Reason is that it's faster to just replace them all then troubleshoot because connectors are the cause of a large number of problems.

What you absolutely can't use when you move from older cable TV stuff to the new digital stuff is the splitters. Most of those have only half the bandwidth required for the later stuff.
Really nothing to do with digital and everything to do with the number of channels and the highest frequency carried by the system. The highest frequency the device is designed for is stamped or printed on the label. Always use the highest available, today that's 2Ghz (2000 Mhz).

-Hal
 
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rnatalie

Senior Member
Location
Catawba, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Really nothing to do with digital and everything to do with the number of channels and the highest frequency carried by the system. The highest frequency the device is designed for is stamped or printed on the label. Always use the highest available, today that's 2Ghz (2000 Mhz).
Yes, the digital part is only tangentially related.
The old analog (either broadcast or cable) rarely exceeded 800 Mhz, the later cable/satellite which happens to be digital, uses frequencies in up to a couple of gigahertz.
And if these things are outside, which they often are, they probably are due for replacement anyhow.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
Trimmed by GeorgeB ...
Its long been the standard here, Cable TV won't connect if its not R6 Quad.
It is my understanding that the Cable TV providers want Quad not for its better performance, but rather for its better characteristics at leaking carried signal out, and the problems that causes. Two homes side by side, each with 59, frequently have ghosting and timing of signal issues from unintended emissions and susceptibility to those.
 
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