RX cheating a little!

[farmantenna]

So many times I run RX through attic and drop down the outside of the house, just down the outside wall to an RV outlet or something like that. Sleeve it in PVC. I know its a violation, but I can't be the only one doing it. Just curious if thats the norm, or should I rethink my ways?

Everyone is talking about the RX in the pipe,which is silly, I'd only install pipe on the exterior of a house as an absolutely last resort.

Your area must not have basements

 

[joebeadg]

yea, its florida, I miss the long island houses with basements!

 

[joebeadg]

IDK, the wire in RX looks like thwn to me, if not, why don't the manufactures just put it in the RX sheething to make it more versitle? I have to charge more to make a transition or use UF instead of RX, and I know darn well the next guy will be cheaper cause he's gonna sleeve the RX

 

[LarryFine]

In no particular order:

They probably don't mark NM-cable conductor because they make more money on wet-rated wire.

Those who believe that stripping NM to use outdoors is okay do because it's "no longer NM cable."

The inside a conduit is not a location; thus, the conductors are in whatever location the conduit is.

No, it's not compliant to run non-wet-rated conductors outdoors, regardless of cable or conduit.

 

[Another C10]

Interesting read as pasted here, through a google search, not necessarily fact I suppose.

it states:

Can Romex wire get wet?
In most homes, ROMEX® wire is used for electricity, where the copper ground wire is wrapped in paper and then, in turn, wrapped in the live and neutral wires. If this wiring is exposed either through a break in the plastic coating or even at the socket, the moisture can be soaked up by the paper, creating rust.

I can see by this explanation above on how the paper gets saturated which could allow for rust .. preventing a good grounding path .. and also the ability for a nicked insulation to allow the current to bleed off the conductor, although maybe one day it will be noted that through extensive research the use of a sheath less Romex style system without paper can be used inside conduits under certain applications.

I'm sorry aside from not really knowing the insulation properties within Romex, which obviously is a factor the NEC considers.. it really does seem to be an adequate and safe transition if having to sleeve the un sheathed insulated conductors within a much stronger encapsulating conduit system.

I just have to face it, it is not written yet as acceptable therefore it is not a common practice as a rare solution, Now it does seem UF cable which I hate with a passion is fine as a direct bury in the ground, I suppose that's because the entire wiring cluster is hermetically sealed, no paper wrap.

Code is code .. and its always changing here and there it seems.

 

[Fred B]

@Another C10 here is reference from horses mouth as it were:
Excerpt from NEMA publication on flooding and water damage: (I highlighted part on nm-b romex, it seems to indicate an issue if that paper become wet. Also included link to NEMA paper)
Wire, Cable, and Flexible Cords
When any wire or cable product is exposed to water, any metallic component (such as the conductor, metallic shield, or armor) is subject to corrosion that can damage the component itself and/or cause termination failures. If water remains in medium voltage cable, it could accelerate insulation deterioration, causing premature failure. Wire and cable that is listed for only dry locations may become a shock hazard, when energized, after being exposed to water. The following recommended actions are based upon the concept that the water contains no high concentrations of chemicals, oils, etc. If it is suspected that the water has unusual contaminants, such as may be found in some flood water, the manufacturer should be consulted before any decision is made to continue using any wire or cable products.
Items Requiring Complete Replacement:
Any wire or cable that is listed for dry locations only, such as type NM-B cable, should be replaced if it has been exposed to water. Any cable that contains fillers, such as polypropylene, paper, etc., should be replaced if the ends of the product have been exposed to water.
Section continues with info related to THHN

http://www.nema.org/prod/be/enclosures/upload/guidelines_handling_water_damaged_elect_equip.pdf

 

[romex jockey]

@Another C10 here is reference from horses mouth as it were:
Excerpt from NEMA publication on flooding and water damage: (I highlighted part on nm-b romex, it seems to indicate an issue if that paper become wet. Also included link to NEMA paper)
Wire, Cable, and Flexible Cords
When any wire or cable product is exposed to water, any metallic component (such as the conductor, metallic shield, or armor) is subject to corrosion that can damage the component itself and/or cause termination failures. If water remains in medium voltage cable, it could accelerate insulation deterioration, causing premature failure. Wire and cable that is listed for only dry locations may become a shock hazard, when energized, after being exposed to water. The following recommended actions are based upon the concept that the water contains no high concentrations of chemicals, oils, etc. If it is suspected that the water has unusual contaminants, such as may be found in some flood water, the manufacturer should be consulted before any decision is made to continue using any wire or cable products.
Items Requiring Complete Replacement:
Any wire or cable that is listed for dry locations only, such as type NM-B cable, should be replaced if it has been exposed to water. Any cable that contains fillers, such as polypropylene, paper, etc., should be replaced if the ends of the product have been exposed to water.
Section continues with info related to THHN

http://www.nema.org/prod/be/enclosures/upload/guidelines_handling_water_damaged_elect_equip.pdf

yup, i was handed that doc by my ahj after the last flood here

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

what is the crews take on >>>
For cables that have elliptical cross
sections, the cross-sectional area calculation shall be
based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a
circle diameter.
Chap 9, note to tables #9

???

~RJ~

 

[roger]

what is the crews take on >>>
For cables that have elliptical cross
sections, the cross-sectional area calculation shall be
based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a
circle diameter.
Chap 9, note to tables #9

???

~RJ~

That is some of the substantiation that it has always been allowed in conduit and tubing. In earlier cycles it was worded a little differently something like " when cables are installed in raceways the actual dimensions shall be used".

Roger

 

[LarryFine]

what is the crews take on >>>
For cables that have elliptical cross
sections, the cross-sectional area calculation shall be
based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a
circle diameter.
Chap 9, note to tables #9

My take is that a cable that measures, for example, 7/16" x 11/16" is to be treated as if it was a round conductor 11/16" in diameter.


Unless I misunderstand your question.

 

[romex jockey]

Unless I misunderstand your question.

uhm, well it's kind of an aside from the op, but many of us strip wire down to single conductors for pipe via that chap 9 ditty

so do we strip away the weatherproof properties of the wire doing so, or is the pipe providing it in lieu of it;s skin?

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

a cable installed in a raceway needs to comply with fill requirements.

a cable sleeved in something that can be used as a raceway does not need to comply with fill requirements

 

[LarryFine]

so do we strip away the weatherproof properties of the wire doing so, or is the pipe providing it in lieu of it;s skin?

I'd say "no" because, like wire in conduit, it's the conductors that must be suitable for wet locations, not the jacket.

I recently used stripped SER in PVC for a generator installation, and I removed the bare for the meter-to-ATS run.

 

[kwired]

I'd say "no" because, like wire in conduit, it's the conductors that must be suitable for wet locations, not the jacket.

I recently used stripped SER in PVC for a generator installation, and I removed the bare for the meter-to-ATS run.

Did your SE cable happen to have marked insulated conductors? Sometimes the XHHW versions do.

 

[LarryFine]

Did your SE cable happen to have marked insulated conductors? Sometimes the XHHW versions do.

They do, and are.

 

[roger]

but many of us strip wire down to single conductors for pipe via that chap 9 ditty

Chapter 9 is telling you that the cable assembly is allowed in a raceway and you must use the outside dimension for the fill. It says nothing about stripping the sheathing.

Roger

 

[romex jockey]

a cable installed in a raceway needs to comply with fill requirements.

a cable sleeved in something that can be used as a raceway does not need to comply with fill requirements

I've had a long standing debate , in that if any raceway does not fit the definition of a raceway, it is a sleeve kwired

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Chapter 9 is telling you that the cable assembly is allowed in a raceway and you must use the outside dimension for the fill. It says nothing about stripping the sheathing.

Roger

Indeed so Roger
yet the conduit size , single elliptical vs multi conductor math results in a lesser size conduit, thus why many strip it ~RJ~

 

[Eddie702]

anything outdoors or in or below a concrete slab at ground level is a wet location

 

[kwired]

I've had a long standing debate , in that if any raceway does not fit the definition of a raceway, it is a sleeve kwired

~RJ~

That is basically what I intended to say