Rotary screw compressor - VFD.

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cs.dk

Member
Location
Denmark
Just a question out of me wondering. I know pistoncompressors doesn't like higher speeds than spece'd - But what about their rotary sisters? Will they produce more air at a higher frequency, without killing the compressor? Ie. like running a 50 Hz ompressot at 60 Hz, will it do any damage?

I've been googling around on rotary screws and VFD's, but nothing seems to answer my question.

Thanks in advance.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
Off hand - compressor could surge - BAD, over pressure, excessive blade tip speed, oil and bearing issues, etc.

Now, IF the actual compressor was originally designed for 60 Hz, that's different, but how would you know?

RC
 

cs.dk

Member
Location
Denmark
Thanks for your quick reply.
Well, I don't know if the device is capable of 60 Hz, only the manufacturer can answer that question. One thing i did notice is that the motor is ~2800 rpm @ 50 Hz, but the compressor is geared down. Can't measure the beltdrives for safety-screens in the way, but my guess is 1:2. Many rotarys runs at ~3000 rpm this seems to run only at 1500-2000 rpm.

Over-pressure will cut out the controller. And oil-pressure on a rotary is "fixed", ie. no air in the tank if the oil-reciever is not pressurized. Surge can be a problem though.
 

cs.dk

Member
Location
Denmark
So, got the safety screens off. Motor is 2800 rpm, pulley 90 mm. The compressor units pulley is 132 mm. So the compressor runs at ~1900 rpm.

Got some new pulleys to "upgrade" from the little XPZ belt to a XPA belt. Ordered the compressor pulley at 118 mm. It seems to run fine, but the motor takes 10,6 A/phase (the typeplate says FLA 10,7A) is this a problem with longer runs, ie. motor overheating, or can it handle to run with 100% load continuously? It's a 3 kW 240/400V motor in star configuration, feeded with 3x400V.

A label on the screw-unit says max. 15 bar, 8000 rpm :blink:

I think it should be possible to fit a 4 kW motor on the frame, and raise the rpm's on the screw-unit.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
You have described two different scenarios here, use of a VFD and a change in pulley ratios. Apples and oranges.

A VFD can increase the frequency above the motor base speed, but in doing so the motor loses torque. Torque is directly related to the ratio of voltage and frequency. So in your case the motor is rated for 400V 50Hz, a ratio of 8:1. If you increase the frequency above 50Hz, but have no additional voltage, the ratio, and thereby the torque, drops. The power remains the same however.

Most machines work on torque not power however. A screw compressor relies upon torque to keep pushing the air though the moving annular spaces formed by meshing the screw lobes together. If you lose that torque, you either stall the motor or you must slow down the compressor to keep from stalling, which means less air flow, so the exercise was pointless.

In your case you have elected to use a different pulley ratio to change speed. When using pulley ratios, the motor speed remains constant, the work shaft speed changes but the torque changes at the pulley ratio change. So in speeding it up, the motor is still operating the same, but you have still lost torque at the compressor shaft. So although the compressor is turning faster, it now will require more power(kW) from the motor to replace that lost torque. What you might be seeing is that the compressor design engineer may have selected a slightly larger motor than necessary so that when you changed the ratio, you are still within the FLC rating of the motor. To answer that question on the current draw however, technically your motor should be able to run at THAT current forever without issue.

So now reality comes creeping in. Why would the compressor design engineer not utilize the additional capacity if it simply meant changing the pulley ratio as you did? From a marketing standpoint, it would mean they could sell that compressor as having additional capacity over what it was advertised for. So might there be some reason you are unaware of that prevailed over a marketing advantage? Might it be that the extra "head room" in the motor sizing or belt ratio selection was to allow for the vagaries of supply voltages thought the 50Hz world that it was intended to be sold in? For example you are using it at 400V. But a lot of countries that use 50 Hz are using 380V, which may dip to 360V and still be acceptable. So if your motor nameplate FLC is 10.7A based on 400V, that means that the LOAD current must not exceed 9.6A, because if the voltage drops to 360V, that 9.6A will increase to 10.7A. So in all likelihood what you are doing here is choosing to CONSUME that fudge factor rather than hold it in reserve. That will likely be fine, as long as all other things are perfect.

Now, can you put in a larger motor? Sure! But are you a mechanical engineer specializing in screw compressor design who can predict any other unforeseen mechanical consequences?
 
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Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician Semi-retired
Another factor on the torque needed, is how high a pressure are you using? Our compressors are designed to go up to 150 psi, but we have them set to never exceed 115 psi. So, I expect we could run them faster to get closer to the maximum work the motor is able to provide. However, we haven't done so, and so I have no practical experience with that.
 

cs.dk

Member
Location
Denmark
You have described two different scenarios here, use of a VFD and a change in pulley ratios. Apples and oranges.

A VFD can increase the frequency above the motor base speed, but in doing so the motor loses torque. Torque is directly related to the ratio of voltage and frequency. So in your case the motor is rated for 400V 50Hz, a ratio of 8:1. If you increase the frequency above 50Hz, but have no additional voltage, the ratio, and thereby the torque, drops. The power remains the same however.

Most machines work on torque not power however. A screw compressor relies upon torque to keep pushing the air though the moving annular spaces formed by meshing the screw lobes together. If you lose that torque, you either stall the motor or you must slow down the compressor to keep from stalling, which means less air flow, so the exercise was pointless.

In your case you have elected to use a different pulley ratio to change speed. When using pulley ratios, the motor speed remains constant, the work shaft speed changes but the torque changes at the pulley ratio change. So in speeding it up, the motor is still operating the same, but you have still lost torque at the compressor shaft. So although the compressor is turning faster, it now will require more power(kW) from the motor to replace that lost torque. What you might be seeing is that the compressor design engineer may have selected a slightly larger motor than necessary so that when you changed the ratio, you are still within the FLC rating of the motor. To answer that question on the current draw however, technically your motor should be able to run at THAT current forever without issue.

So now reality comes creeping in. Why would the compressor design engineer not utilize the additional capacity if it simply meant changing the pulley ratio as you did? From a marketing standpoint, it would mean they could sell that compressor as having additional capacity over what it was advertised for. So might there be some reason you are unaware of that prevailed over a marketing advantage? Might it be that the extra "head room" in the motor sizing or belt ratio selection was to allow for the vagaries of supply voltages thought the 50Hz world that it was intended to be sold in? For example you are using it at 400V. But a lot of countries that use 50 Hz are using 380V, which may dip to 360V and still be acceptable. So if your motor nameplate FLC is 10.7A based on 400V, that means that the LOAD current must not exceed 9.6A, because if the voltage drops to 360V, that 9.6A will increase to 10.7A. So in all likelihood what you are doing here is choosing to CONSUME that fudge factor rather than hold it in reserve. That will likely be fine, as long as all other things are perfect.

Now, can you put in a larger motor? Sure! But are you a mechanical engineer specializing in screw compressor design who can predict any other unforeseen mechanical consequences?

Thank you very much for a nice pin-pointet answer.

Here in Denmark, we got very good supply-lines, brown-outs are not really an issue here.
The compressor may be sold for all 50 Hz countrys - I understand that they uses some margin.

Well, i'm not engineer in screw compressors - But they don't have any "spare parts", other than bearings. Nothing else moving/touching in there. And as the typeplate states, it is allowed to run at 8000 rpm.

A VFD is dropped for now, i won't run the chance.
This is just a theoretical question. I can remain the V/F ratio, though I think the motor will burn out. I have an Omron 3x400V inverter, the motor is coupled for 230V/400V (star) - If I couple the motor in delta config, and set the inverter to output 230V @ 50 Hz. Then, if I raise the frequency, the voltage will raise (up to 400V). This will off course over-voltage the windings.

The pressure is 8 bar/~115 PSi
 

cs.dk

Member
Location
Denmark
This is just a theoretical question. I can remain the V/F ratio, though I think the motor will burn out. I have an Omron 3x400V inverter, the motor is coupled for 230V/400V (star) - If I couple the motor in delta config, and set the inverter to output 230V @ 50 Hz. Then, if I raise the frequency, the voltage will raise (up to 400V). This will off course over-voltage the windings.

Bump.. Has anyone tried this? Will the motor burn, or?
Maybe i should find an old motor for testing..
 
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