romex commercial / res

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shockme

Member
1st floor commercial :confused: 2,3,& 4th floors residential apartments 5 per floor all fed by own panel.
Is romex allowable on upper floors above commercial 1st floor, if all fire ratings are observed.( new wood construction )
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: romex commercial / res

It depends upon where you are located. I know that Chicago doesn't recognize Article 334 so type NM can not be used at all. In Indiana, any building may be wired with type NM as follows from the Indiana Electrical Code:

Sec. 18.
(a) Delete the text of (2) in Section 334.10 and substitute:
(2) In any building or structure not exceed-ing three (3) stories (see Section 362.10 for the definition of STORY).
(a) For exposed work except as prohibited in Section 334.12.
(b) Concealed within walls, floors, and ceilings except as prohibited in Section 334.12.

(b) Delete the text of (3) in Section 334.10 and substitute:
(3) In any building or structure exceeding three (3) stories (see Section 362.10 for the definition of STORY), Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, and ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies. The 15-minute-finish-rated thermal barrier shall be permitted to be used for combustible walls, floors, and ceilings, except as prohibited in Section 334.12.
Exception: Where the building is provided with an approved automatic sprinkler system throughout, Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables are permitted to be used within walls, floors, ceilings, exposed or concealed, in buildings exceeding three (3) stories.
(Fire Prevention and Building Safety Commis-sion; 675 IAC 17-1.6-18; filed Aug 14, 2002, 4:20 p.m.: 26 IR 18)

In other words, check your local laws.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Re: romex commercial / res

You really need to have your AHJ sign off on the romex.... there are too many side issues that can come back and haunt you- especially if. at some future date, someone wants to turn an apartment into an office...
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: romex commercial / res

Renosteinke I do not believe that is a fair statement. Any time an occupancy changes, the electrical system may need to be changed to accommodate those changes. For instance, an area in a warehouse is now going to start handling Class I, Div 1 materials. The whole area will be required to be re-wired for the occupancy. Suppose two buildings in one structure had two separate services and were two separate stores. One of the stores expanded, bought the other half of the structure and opened up the fire wall with a large, open doorway. This (now single) building is now required to have only one service and must be changed.

The bottom line, when buildings change, often times, the wiring must change with its usage. ;)
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Re: romex commercial / res

Yes, Charlie, that is correct. The example that you use showed a change from one type of industrial occupancy to another; what concerns me is a change from residential to commercial.
I'm not necessarily limiting myself to the "use" so much as the "purpose" of the occupancy. For example, an apartment is considered "residential," while a hotel room is "commercial." With the zoning change, some wiring are no longer appropriate.
The trouble with 'pushing the limits' of any method is that later it is tempting to take short-cuts- especially when the work is being done by the maintenance guy.
I suppose that I've seen too many recent example of people playing fast & loose, being deliberately creative in order to circumvent rules. "It's not a theater- it's a 'viewing room'"
I encourage the customer to honestly formulate his plans, and have an honest discussion with the AHJ's. No profit in letting the AHJ decide you've pulled a fast one on him!
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Re: romex commercial / res

In my opinion, alot of it has to do with the size of the building. My logic is that NM cable can used in buildings (other than assembly) not required to be non-combustible. Your building is already sprinklered and may have property frontage to allow an area increase, therefore even if they change it to an office it would probably still be permitted as a non-combustible building. 2002 NEC and 2000 IBC
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: romex commercial / res

Shockme,

334.10(2) &(3) mention building types, and in Annex E Types of Construction, Table E. 1, describes the types.
Building officials like to skirt this issue and say ask the electrical Inspector, who will say he is no engineer, ask the building official, etc...
If there are plans, look on the plans for the building type. If there are no plans it will be harder to determine. My advice is push the building official, it is his job.

As a note: we can not forsee the future, wire for today! As my father says... we will cross that bridge when we get to it!

Pierre
 
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