Res Disconnect next to Panel: is it a subpanel then?

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newservice

Senior Member
Have come across this before, a separate enclosed knife disco for the service, right next to the panel, maybe a foot at most, and panel is fed with 3 wires from the disco not 4, but bonded with a good #4 copper. Panel does not have separated neutrals and grounds as a sub panel would.
Even though separate enclosures,, would you let this fly?
 

newservice

Senior Member
With no OCPD, it is not the 1st means of disconnect w/OCP. So the panel would be your service disconnect and would not be a subpanel.
OK thanks, I did not know that. Makes sense. Even more so if you consider pulling the meter could be a disconnect. Thx!
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Take a look at 230.91. It substantiates what Bill states. The disconnect along with the ovecurrent device immediately adajacednt to the disconenct become the service disconnect.
 

newservice

Senior Member
right, I think I did know that but I saw it yesterday and am in a bit of brain fog atm. This reinforces it and points to the code.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I don't agree with my fellow moderators on this. The knife switch is the service disconnect and the bonding must be at the switch. There is nothing that says the service OCPD has to be part of the service disconnect. I see the cited section, 230.91, as supporting my comment.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Have come across this before, a separate enclosed knife disco for the service, right next to the panel, maybe a foot at most, and panel is fed with 3 wires from the disco not 4, but bonded with a good #4 copper. Panel does not have separated neutrals and grounds as a sub panel would.
Even though separate enclosures,, would you let this fly?

I'm confused by " fed with 3 wires from the disco not 4, but ]bonded with a good #4 copper." Sounds like 4 wires after all, unless you are describing a bare neutral.
 

augie47

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I don't agree with my fellow moderators on this. The knife switch is the service disconnect and the bonding must be at the switch. There is nothing that says the service OCPD has to be part of the service disconnect. I see the cited section, 230.91, as supporting my comment.
I can't say we are in disagreement (my wording, as always, could have been better). I was attempting to say that I see no problem with the installation as the OCP is immediately adjacent.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I don't agree with my fellow moderators on this. The knife switch is the service disconnect and the bonding must be at the switch. There is nothing that says the service OCPD has to be part of the service disconnect. I see the cited section, 230.91, as supporting my comment.
I guess I also have Augieitis! :) The main point I was attempting to make was that the panel was not a subpanel.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I guess I also have Augieitis! :) The main point I was attempting to make was that the panel was not a subpanel.
And I am saying it is a subpanel and requires the ungrounded conductor, the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor between the knife switch and the panel.
 

Little Bill

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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
And I am saying it is a subpanel and requires the ungrounded conductor, the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor between the knife switch and the panel.
I don't see it that way. I think if the code meant it that way, they would have said it. IMO, it's just giving permission to have the OCP to be adjacent to, rather than a part of, the disconnecting means, in effect, making them as one in the same.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I don't see it that way. I think if the code meant it that way, they would have said it. IMO, it's just giving permission to have the OCP to be adjacent to, rather than a part of, the disconnecting means, in effect, making them as one in the same.
I read it the other way. Maybe I will put this on my 2026 PI list.
 
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