Please help! Trying to understand what all is going on here

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Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
This is a main panel, two hot wires come in from the back with what looks like a 6 gauge bare copper coming in that connects to the neutral bus. That bare copper wire I thought was the equipment grounding conductor but then where’s the neutral? Is the copper wire the neutral but then we’re is there egc? It appears the bare copper wire is serving as the neutral and there is no egc at the main(I thought there always had to be) But at the meter there is a grounding conductor going to ground rod straight down, after finding 250.24 this seems allowed and you don’t need a egc at the main? Also if you were going to install a new panel do you still bond the neutral bus to the cabinet and would you run a separate egc to ground rod from the ground bus off the main panel? If anyone could help me out on what’s going on here it would greatly be appreciated!

bigger wire dropping straight down from the top is just to the dryer, its a main lug only panel so no main disconnect

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On a duplex there’s two bigger wires entering weatherhead and two smaller wires, not sure why there is 2 smaller wires coming off the neutral.


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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Not sure what you want to do but we cannot help with diy questions. I can however tell you that the wires coming in the back are service conductors and the neutral services 2 purpose. The neutral should be bonded to the panel and all the equipment grounding conductor from the circuits would be connected together. This is only allowed at the main panel (service disconnect) The bare copper is a grounded conductor and is both a neutral and a ground if you may allow those terms.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I would like to add a few things:

Where does the cable below the meter go? No outside disconnect? Where does the cable's stranded neutral transition into solid?

You have no main disconnect, but that's okay with six or fewer breakers. Is there a water-pipe electrode bonding conductor?
 

Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
Not sure what you want to do but we cannot help with diy questions. I can however tell you that the wires coming in the back are service conductors and the neutral services 2 purpose. The neutral should be bonded to the panel and all the equipment grounding conductor from the circuits would be connected together. This is only allowed at the main panel (service disconnect) The bare copper is a grounded conductor and is both a neutral and a ground if you may allow those terms.
I’m just studying for home inspection purposes no diy work, it’s on my cousins house. So if the neutral can serve two purposes like it’s doing here why couldn’t it just do that all the time , is there anything wrong with it doing
I would like to add a few things:

Where does the cable below the meter go? No outside disconnect? Where does the cable's stranded neutral transition into solid?

You have no main disconnect, but that's okay with six or fewer breakers. Is there a water-pipe electrode bonding conductor?
the cable below the meter goes directly into the ground it’s a 6 gauge copper, no outside disconnect and no bonding at the water pipe.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm still unclear. Is the solid conductor part of the service cable, or is there a splice somewhere?

The basics: On the line side of whichever enclosure houses the main disconnect (and ignoring the meter), there is no EGC, there is only the neutral.

The main disconnect is where the premises grounding system begins as separate conductors, and its connection to the service neutral is the main bonding conductor. The grounding electrodes (rod(s), water pipe, building steel, etc.) must also connect to the service neutral at (or before) this point.

Any circuits leaving this enclosure, whether branch circuits or feeders, must include an EGC separate from the neutral (if there is one), and said neutral should never be bonded to ground again. Except for switching, fusing, etc., we treat the neutral as we would any ungrounded (hot) conductor.
 

Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
I'm still unclear. Is the solid conductor part of the service cable, or is there a splice somewhere?

The basics: On the line side of whichever enclosure houses the main disconnect (and ignoring the meter), there is no EGC, there is only the neutral.

The main disconnect is where the premises grounding system begins as separate conductors, and its connection to the service neutral is the main bonding conductor. The grounding electrodes (rod(s), water pipe, building steel, etc.) must also connect to the service neutral at (or before) this point.

Any circuits leaving this enclosure, whether branch circuits or feeders, must include an EGC separate from the neutral (if there is one), and said neutral should never be bonded to ground again. Except for switching, fusing, etc., we treat the neutral as we would any ungrounded (hot) conductor.
The solid conductor comes into the panel from the meter along with the two hot conductors, I think I get it now, the neutral must be bonded to the grounding conductor inside the meter then the grounding conductor drops straight down out of the meter to the ground rod, whereas I thought that bond always had to be made inside the main panel. The solid copper was also really throwing me off I wasn’t expecting that to be the neutral
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I would like to add a few things:

Where does the cable below the meter go? No outside disconnect? Where does the cable's stranded neutral transition into solid?

You have no main disconnect, but that's okay with six or fewer breakers. Is there a water-pipe electrode bonding conductor?
Larry, there is no cable below the meter. That is conduit/EMT protecting the GEC. If you look at the top just below the meter, you can see the GEC running through the conduit. The GEC is connected in the meter as some POCOs require or allow that.
 

Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
Larry, there is no cable below the meter. That is conduit/EMT protecting the GEC. If you look at the top just below the meter, you can see the GEC running through the conduit. The GEC is connected in the meter as some POCOs require or allow that.
Yes thanks for clarifying that I should have, although I don’t the answer to Larry’s question where does the stranded neutral transition into solid copper?
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I’m just studying for home inspection purposes

home inspector...

Always remember, that house or any other one you look at does not have to conform to the NEC you are reading now. It needs to conform to the Code that was in force when it was built or when any other work was done.
I’ve read too many reports where a home inspector writes up violations that aren’t or weren’t violations when the work was done.

the NEC isn’t retroactive.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
The solid conductor comes into the panel from the meter along with the two hot conductors, I think I get it now, the neutral must be bonded to the grounding conductor inside the meter then the grounding conductor drops straight down out of the meter to the ground rod, whereas I thought that bond always had to be made inside the main panel. The solid copper was also really throwing me off I wasn’t expecting that to be the neutral
Not exactly. The neutral conductor connects to a neutral bar in the main disconnect. A main bonding jumper then connects the neutral to the enclosure. And you need to be careful to use the correct terms. The "grounding conductor" you mention is a grounding electrode conductor or GEC and the "ground rod" is a grounding electrode.
The main bonding jumper must be within the service enclosure.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Ohhhhh, so the meter and panel are back-to-back. D-oh! :unsure:

Only three conductors is the norm. You're lucky you can land the rod conductor in the meter.

The only issues I see are:

The nipple should be bonded and bushed.

Make sure the enclosure is bonded to the neutral bus.

And where is the water-pipe GEC?
 

Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
home inspector...

Always remember, that house or any other one you look at does not have to conform to the NEC you are reading now. It needs to conform to the Code that was in force when it was built or when any other work was done.
I’ve read too many reports where a home inspector writes up violations that aren’t or weren’t violations when the work was done.

the NEC isn’t retroactive.
Okay thanks!
 

Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
Ohhhhh, so the meter and panel are back-to-back. D-oh! :unsure:

Only three conductors is the norm. You're lucky you can land the rod conductor in the meter.

The only issues I see are:

The nipple should be bonded and bushed.

Make sure the enclosure is bonded to the neutral bus.

And where is the water-pipe GEC?
Yeah it doesn’t appear the neutral bus is bonded to the enclosure and it’s copper water pipe but isn’t bonded to the grounding system
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
This is the whole thing that was throwing me off I thought the GEC always came off the neutral bus in the main, thanks everyone for the help
Depends on the poco too, Georgia Power will not allow the GEC in any of their equipment, but BREMC prefers it, and wants it to extend all the way out the mast where they crimp it with the neutral, even though it passes through a side lug at the neutral connection in the meter base.
 

Rayne

Member
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Learning
I'm curious what else you saw in that panel that you would include in a report?
Different brand breaker on the one 20 amp circuit , missing bushing on the dryers circuit entering the panel , no main disconnect (fewer than 6) so okay but I would atleast explain that, the debris and moisture etc. probably about it but what I’m trying to get answered now is sense the service is grounded at the meter instead of the panel does it still need a gec coming off the neutral bus going to the electrode it currently doesn’t but not sure
 
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