Outlet under a counter top overhang

[wawasworld]

I have recently had an inspector fail for an outlet too far under a countertop overhang, it is being failed for article 210.52 (C)(5), if you read the article I see the definition as it needing to be within 12" from the top of the countertop (please see photo), this photo is from the inspector and I feel he is incorrectly measuring, (NEC 2014). also in that same articel it mentions "receptacles mounted below a countertop in an accordance to this exception shall not be located whre the countertop extends more than 6", Im not sure if that has anything to do with this situation or not, any help would be appreciated, thanks, TW.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with you but not sure how you will get the authority having jurisdiction to change his mind

 

[fireryan]

i agree to. Since when do you measure at a angle?

 

[GoldDigger]

i agree to. Since when do you measure at a angle?

Even if you just measure straight, it sure looks like the counter extends more than 6".
And vertical distance may be more than 6" too FWIW.
Without doing the trig, I accept that the horizontal distance is less than 12" though.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is that overhang more than 6"?

 

[starbolin]

I had to re-read the exception to 210.25(C)5 and the second sentence is pretty clear. Under the exception, for an outlet to be counted as as meeting 210.52(C) is has to be both not more than 12" below the counter edge and the counter can extend not more than 6". Sorry to say, but the inspector here is giving you a break by even measuring the outlet distance. The counter is too deep for the outlet to be counted under the exception.

I'm afraid I have to disagree, as to the measurement, with the more senior members of this board. The outlet is definitely 'below' the counter, no disagreement there. The code does not say 'directly below' or 'on a plane below' or 'vertically below' so the dimension can be measured on any applicable vector and the vector that is in question here is from the near edge of the counter to the outlet. An under-counter outlet is does not count as meeting 210.52(C) unless complying with the exception and to avoid omission should be unambiguously within the exception's 12" rule and this outlet is not. One should not be able to place the outlet any arbitrary distance behind the counter ledge and still argue "It's within 12 inches!"

In addition this outlet violates the spirit of the code section in that it would be impossible to safely place an appliance with a 12 inch cord on the counter and connect it to the outlet.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The reason there is a limitation on the 6" is because we are allowed 12" down.

 

[wawasworld]

Thank you for all your input, your input has clarified this article and has helped me with my situation, thx, TW.

 

[charlie b]

I'm afraid I have to disagree, as to the measurement, with the more senior members of this board. The outlet is definitely 'below' the counter, no disagreement there. The code does not say 'directly below' or 'on a plane below' or 'vertically below' so the dimension can be measured on any applicable vector and the vector that is in question here is from the near edge of the counter to the outlet.

And I will disagree right back at you. The code says "below the countertop." It does not say anything about the closest or furthest point of the countertop. The countertop is a large flat surface, and it is possible to measure distances from the receptacle's location to any point you wish on the entire countertop. However, any person well versed in mathematics will tell you that the distance from a point to a plane is taken along a line that is perpendicular to the plane. That means you measure straignt down from the line of the wall.

This particular installation is a problem in that the overhang is more than 6 inches, as others have pointed out. But to complete the math story, if the overhang is 6 inches, and the receptacle is 12 inches (directly) below the countertop, an appliance cord would have to be at least 13.4 inches long in order to reach the receptacle from the top surface. Actually, it would need to be quite a bit longer than that, to account for placing the appliance not to close to the edge, and reaching the connection point of the receptacle. You will note, for example, that the inspector measured to the top of the outlet cover. The point of connection is a bit lower than that.

 

[starbolin]

The reason there is a limitation on the 6" is because we are allowed 12" down.

Yes, that is a big hole in my argument but the rule says the counter extension can be no longer than 6" and does not mention the recess of the outlet. Still, this being a new day, I don't see it the same as I saw it yesterday.

 

[starbolin]

And I will disagree right back at you. The code says "below the countertop." It does not say anything about the closest or furthest point of the countertop. The countertop is a large flat surface, and it is possible to measure distances from the receptacle's location to any point you wish on the entire countertop. However, any person well versed in mathematics will tell you that the distance from a point to a plane is taken along a line that is perpendicular to the plane. That means you measure straignt down from the line of the wall.

...

Yes, I am sitting here thinking of all the other times in the code when is say '1-1/4" below' or '18" above' and it seems pretty clear what that the language implies 'in a plane'. Still, I've been called on 210.25(C)5 in the past and the inspector always measured the distance as shown in the picture. I don't know if that was from laziness, his desire to implement the intent of the code, or some logic that I am still trying to understand.

 

[GoldDigger]

Yes, that is a big hole in my argument but the rule says the counter extension can be no longer than 6" and does not mention the recess of the outlet. Still, this being a new day, I don't see it the same as I saw it yesterday.

If you consider the counter extension to be the horizontal distance from the edge of the counter to the vertical face of the base cabinet, the only way that could be different from the recess of the outlet would be if you build a recess into the cabinet and mount the receptacle at the back of it.

 

[Pharon]

Under the exception, for an outlet to be counted as as meeting 210.52(C) is has to be both not more than 12" below the counter edge and the counter can extend not more than 6". Sorry to say, but the inspector here is giving you a break by even measuring the outlet distance. The counter is too deep for the outlet to be counted under the exception.

This. The outlet does not qualify as a 210.52(C)(1) required outlet via the 210.52(C)(5) exception because the counter extends out more than 6 inches.

Therefore, per the letter of the Code, you should have to install another outlet (or move this one) 20" or lower above the countertop. And if the counter is more than 24" long, you'll need more than one.

 

[Dossier31]

I had to re-read the exception to 210.25(C)5 and the second sentence is pretty clear. Under the exception, for an outlet to be counted as as meeting 210.52(C) is has to be both not more than 12" below the counter edge and the counter can extend not more than 6". Sorry to say, but the inspector here is giving you a break by even measuring the outlet distance. The counter is too deep for the outlet to be counted under the exception.

I'm afraid I have to disagree, as to the measurement, with the more senior members of this board. The outlet is definitely 'below' the counter, no disagreement there. The code does not say 'directly below' or 'on a plane below' or 'vertically below' so the dimension can be measured on any applicable vector and the vector that is in question here is from the near edge of the counter to the outlet. An under-counter outlet is does not count as meeting 210.52(C) unless complying with the exception and to avoid omission should be unambiguously within the exception's 12" rule and this outlet is not. One should not be able to place the outlet any arbitrary distance behind the counter ledge and still argue "It's within 12 inches!"

In addition this outlet violates the spirit of the code section in that it would be impossible to safely place an appliance with a 12 inch cord on the counter and connect it to the outlet.

sure it would! just drill a hole in the countertop! lol jk