More then One Main Breaker or Cutoff Panel?

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fastcar

Member
Location
Vallejo, CA
Occupation
electrical sales
SITUATION: In my area, the AHJ, requires a cutoff panel immediately adjacent to the meter base outside the house. Behind the cutoff panel Inside the garage is MLO panel.

My question is can I substitute the MLO in the garage to a Main breaker panel? Of course, I'll keep the neutral and equipment ground bus kept separate from one another as you do with a MLO (subpanels).

I'm having trouble with 230,70 through 230.82 regarding service disconnects means; because NEC 230.71(A) requires that the service disconnecting means consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure in the SAME LOCATION.

If a main panel was installed in the garage instead of MLO panel, the home owner would have the convenience of turning off the power from both outside and inside.

Sorry for and redundancy.

The million dollar question is: Is it code compliant to have 2 disconnects, one outside the house and the other inside?

Thank you in advance and stay safe everyone!
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
If im reading you correctly, you will have the main outside, but would also like to use a main breaker panel inside? Yes, you can. The main inside is not the service disconnect, it is just a sub panel with a main.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm going from memory (not citing the Code). As I understand it, if you have more than (2) circuits (or the capability of 2 or more circuits) in the garage you would have to provide a local means of disconnecting ALL circuits with (1) master switch. So, in your case, you are installing a MBP with the capability of providing more than (2) circuits. The main breaker in that panel will serve as a disconnect means for all the circuits. While that main breaker is an over-current device, it basically acts as a molded case switch. The actual; over-current protection will be provided for the feeder in the inside main breaker panel. You still have to make sure the neutrals float in the garage panel and the EGC's get terminated to a ground bus in the panel enclosure. You will also have to re-establish the ground by driving a ground rod if it is a detached garage. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I'm going from memory (not citing the Code). As I understand it, if you have more than (2) circuits (or the capability of 2 or more circuits) in the garage you would have to provide a local means of disconnecting ALL circuits with (1) master switch. So, in your case, you are installing a MBP with the capability of providing more than (2) circuits. The main breaker in that panel will serve as a disconnect means for all the circuits. While that main breaker is an over-current device, it basically acts as a molded case switch. The actual; over-current protection will be provided for the feeder in the inside main breaker panel. You still have to make sure the neutrals float in the garage panel and the EGC's get terminated to a ground bus in the panel enclosure. You will also have to re-establish the ground by driving a ground rod if it is a detached garage. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I think the equipment is on the Garage.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I think the equipment is on the Garage.
Sorry, not sure how I missed that. So, now if I understand this correctly, why would you need 2 disconnects ? Why would it matter if you shut down the service outside or inside ? Am I still missing something ?
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Sorry, not sure how I missed that. So, now if I understand this correctly, why would you need 2 disconnects ? Why would it matter if you shut down the service outside or inside ? Am I still missing something ?
I think the op is not needing two disconnects, he’s just asking if it was ok to have two, one outside, and instead of a mlo on the inside, it would also have a main breaker in it, it would still be a sub panel.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think the op is not needing two disconnects, he’s just asking if it was ok to have two, one outside, and instead of a mlo on the inside, it would also have a main breaker in it, it would still be a sub panel.
That has never been a problem. 2020 NEC it gets more complicated with that new outdoor disconnect rule though. Said disconnect doesn't have to be the service disconnect, but can be. Labeling is required to indicate what it is.

Before 2020, if it meets service disconnect requirements and is the first disconnect - it is the service disconnect for the most part. Any main breaker panels after that are either required to have main if they are supplied by feeder tap or is required to be the main in a separate building or structure. Otherwise is essentially just a convenience switch in other cases
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
That has never been a problem. 2020 NEC it gets more complicated with that new outdoor disconnect rule though. Said disconnect doesn't have to be the service disconnect, but can be. Labeling is required to indicate what it is.

Before 2020, if it meets service disconnect requirements and is the first disconnect - it is the service disconnect for the most part. Any main breaker panels after that are either required to have main if they are supplied by feeder tap or is required to be the main in a separate building or structure. Otherwise is essentially just a convenience switch in other cases
In the past 20 or so years I’ve been putting them on the outside whether it was required or not. Much safer for the firemen to turn off the switch, than to pull the meter. But then I only do high end homes anyway, and work directly for the owners due to my reputation.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
In the past 20 or so years I’ve been putting them on the outside whether it was required or not. Much safer for the firemen to turn off the switch, than to pull the meter. But then I only do high end homes anyway, and work directly for the owners due to my reputation.
Nearly all the higher end homes I ever done often had metering away from the house and direct entry into basement with service disconnect(s) in the basement - nothing on exterior of home for service or main feeder equipment.

Have done many over years where service raceway runs under basement floor and emerges somewhere in middle of the house - this gets the main panel in somewhat centralized location and keeps home runs shorter. A plus if kitchen is close to this area, and usually is in a mechanical room so HVAC is typically close as well.

2020 NEC is going to change this though. Might still put panels in similar areas, but still will need a disconnect ouside with new rules. Some rural places may not matter much, they always had a disconnect on the pole, that I would assume we can still consider meeting that outside emergency disconnect requirement.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
From what I understand at the moment, our typical farm disconnect at the pole, or manual transfer switch with center off, will be considered as meeting the 2020 requirements in NE. Labels added of course.
Our poco will not allow farm services, I know, I tried when I built my house and shop. They wanted it on the house.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Nearly all the higher end homes I ever done often had metering away from the house and direct entry into basement with service disconnect(s) in the basement - nothing on exterior of home for service or main feeder equipment.

Have done many over years where service raceway runs under basement floor and emerges somewhere in middle of the house - this gets the main panel in somewhat centralized location and keeps home runs shorter. A plus if kitchen is close to this area, and usually is in a mechanical room so HVAC is typically close as well.

2020 NEC is going to change this though. Might still put panels in similar areas, but still will need a disconnect ouside with new rules. Some rural places may not matter much, they always had a disconnect on the pole, that I would assume we can still consider meeting that outside emergency disconnect requirement.
Our poco will not allow it. Has to be on the house.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Our poco will not allow farm services, I know, I tried when I built my house and shop. They wanted it on the house.

Typically the POCO doesn't get involved with the NEC requirements here. Manual Transfer switches with center off must be near the meter to qualify for incentives from the POCO and for our area, now must be Inspected which is a new requirement. Previously only new services required inspection. Transfer switches were not generally considered SE.

Getting Off topic.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Typically the POCO doesn't get involved with the NEC requirements here. Manual Transfer switches with center off must be near the meter to qualify for incentives from the POCO and for our area, now must be Inspected which is a new requirement. Previously only new services required inspection. Transfer switches were not generally considered SE.

Getting Off topic.
They don’t care if there is a disconnect outside or not, they just will not put power to anything outside of a mobile home or well pump that isn’t attached to a structure. Engineer said it was in their bylaws, but I never looked it up.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Our poco will not allow it. Has to be on the house.
What if no house is being supplied?

A POCO in this area does not want meters on their distribution poles. On the house being served is sort of their recommendation, but if you want to put your own post, pedestal, or other structure somewhere they have no problem with that either. Not every service has a "house" or other building to supply. Sometimes we hit a garage first then feed the house with a feeder from the garage, IMO "house" is the wrong word to use.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
What if no house is being supplied?

A POCO in this area does not want meters on their distribution poles. On the house being served is sort of their recommendation, but if you want to put your own post, pedestal, or other structure somewhere they have no problem with that either. Not every service has a "house" or other building to supply. Sometimes we hit a garage first then feed the house with a feeder from the garage, IMO "house" is the wrong word to use.
As I said, unless its a mobile home pole, or well service, they want it on the house. You can put one on a garage, but if you feed from the garage to the house later, they are not involved, so they can't do anything about it. Just relaying what the
Poco engineer said.
 
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