Listed cable ties

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kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jumper said:
It is a good question.

How do you prove you torqued a connection if they are not there watching? We are not supposed to retorque, so......

I understand the necessity of big stuff, but devices and such? Another rule not completely thought out that passed.
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I have no issue with the rule, though I do believe we already had it covered with 110.3(B). But as you mentioned how does one enforce the rule without watching as the item is being installed?


The cable ties - several years ago we had to start dealing with them being UV resistant if used outdoors. Many guys started using only UV resistant ties to keep from getting gigged when the help grabbed the wrong ones. This change will probably not be much different - people will eventually only purchase the ones listed for securement - even though they may not nee them or all uses.

TR receptacles - there are a few places in a dwelling you can get by without - I bet most get TR everywhere regardless.
 
J

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
kwired said:
I have no issue with the rule, though I do believe we already had it covered with 110.3(B). But as you mentioned how does one enforce the rule without watching as the item is being installed?


The cable ties - several years ago we had to start dealing with them being UV resistant if used outdoors. Many guys started using only UV resistant ties to keep from getting gigged when the help grabbed the wrong ones. This change will probably not be much different - people will eventually only purchase the ones listed for securement - even though they may not nee them or all uses.

TR receptacles - there are a few places in a dwelling you can get by without - I bet most get TR everywhere regardless.
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Yep.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
There are already several jurisdictions in the bay area that require special torque inspections of every connection in load centers/panel boards. It can be a real PITA re-torquing every connection after the equipment is 100% complete especially when EGC and neutral connection get buried under AFCI breakers.

This policy was started by one inspector that has zero experience in the trade but follows the letter of the code 100%. I have argued why don't they require torque inspections of all receptacles and switches since a loose connection on a receptacle behind a couch is far more likely to start a fire that a loose connection on a 20 amp breaker. The response I get is the NEC requires they verify the torque of overcurrent devices but not other devices.
 
J

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
curt swartz said:
There are already several jurisdictions in the bay area that require special torque inspections of every connection in load centers/panel boards. It can be a real PITA re-torquing every connection after the equipment is 100% complete especially when EGC and neutral connection get buried under AFCI breakers.

This policy was started by one inspector that has zero experience in the trade but follows the letter of the code 100%. I have argued why don't they require torque inspections of all receptacles and switches since a loose connection on a receptacle behind a couch is far more likely to start a fire that a loose connection on a 20 amp breaker. The response I get is the NEC requires they verify the torque of overcurrent devices but not other devices.
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tbbnq3.jpg
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
curt swartz said:
There are already several jurisdictions in the bay area that require special torque inspections of every connection in load centers/panel boards. It can be a real PITA re-torquing every connection after the equipment is 100% complete especially when EGC and neutral connection get buried under AFCI breakers.

This policy was started by one inspector that has zero experience in the trade but follows the letter of the code 100%. I have argued why don't they require torque inspections of all receptacles and switches since a loose connection on a receptacle behind a couch is far more likely to start a fire that a loose connection on a 20 amp breaker. The response I get is the NEC requires they verify the torque of overcurrent devices but not other devices.
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This guy needs educated. NEC doesn't specify verification of tightening torque on anything.

I do agree the "glowing connection" on a receptacle behind a couch is much more likely a fire hazard then a glowing connection on a breaker terminal. The one on the breaker terminal even has some chance of tripping the breaker from via thermal overload protection - note that it likely won't trip an AFCI (on AFCI functions).
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
curt swartz said:
There are already several jurisdictions in the bay area that require special torque inspections of every connection in load centers/panel boards. It can be a real PITA re-torquing every connection after the equipment is 100% complete especially when EGC and neutral connection get buried under AFCI breakers.

This policy was started by one inspector that has zero experience in the trade but follows the letter of the code 100%. I have argued why don't they require torque inspections of all receptacles and switches since a loose connection on a receptacle behind a couch is far more likely to start a fire that a loose connection on a 20 amp breaker. The response I get is the NEC requires they verify the torque of overcurrent devices but not other devices.
Click to expand...

It is my understanding that you should never re-torque a connection where the screw or bolt is in direct contact with the wire.
 
J

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
jumper said:
It is 110.14(D).

I can not find a copy of the exact wording, but it basically says that if a torque value is stated or marked on a termination device or such by the manufacturer then one must use a calibrated tool to ensure that value is properly achieved.
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I take it your torque every outlet and switch when you install them?
 
benmin

benmin

Senior Member
Location
Maine
Occupation
Master Electrician
Personally, I think the 2017 code of requiring torquing to manufactures specs is a good idea on the higher amperage stuff like breakers and lugs. Always going and rechecking tightening on helpers and my own connections. At least this way, when it becomes the norm, you can feel confident connections are just right. Not too loose, Not too tight but just right
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jusme123 said:
I take it your torque every outlet and switch when you install them?
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If it has a tightening torque value in the instructions included in the listing you were supposed to all along.

benmin said:
Personally, I think the 2017 code of requiring torquing to manufactures specs is a good idea on the higher amperage stuff like breakers and lugs. Always going and rechecking tightening on helpers and my own connections. At least this way, when it becomes the norm, you can feel confident connections are just right. Not too loose, Not too tight but just right
Click to expand...
General rules of making connections doesn't recommend "retorquing" of connections. You are supposed to tighten the connection device until the correct torque is reached and once it is reached you are done. Any rechecking does add additional strain to the connection and is actually over tightening it.

Can you get away with doing so with little issues? Most of the time yes.
 
tom baker

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Many years ago I got a package of T&B Cable ties that were listed for plenum spaces, they were made of Halar, purple in color, they were about $1.00 each. With the 2014 NEC requiring plenum cable ties, I looked into this requirement, and found some from Arlington (again purple) for about $15.00/100. Then as Don mentioned, if you look at the packaging, many standard cable ties are listed for plenum spaces. I don't know about the availability of 2S types, I will look into whats out there
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
tom baker said:
Many years ago I got a package of T&B Cable ties that were listed for plenum spaces, they were made of Halar, purple in color, they were about $1.00 each. With the 2014 NEC requiring plenum cable ties, I looked into this requirement, and found some from Arlington (again purple) for about $15.00/100. Then as Don mentioned, if you look at the packaging, many standard cable ties are listed for plenum spaces. I don't know about the availability of 2S types, I will look into whats out there
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I haven't found any Type 2S or 21S in the big box stores around here.
 
Fred B

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
kwired said:
If it has a tightening torque value in the instructions included in the listing you were supposed to all along.

General rules of making connections doesn't recommend "retorquing" of connections. You are supposed to tighten the connection device until the correct torque is reached and once it is reached you are done. Any rechecking does add additional strain to the connection and is actually over tightening it.

Can you get away with doing so with little issues? Most of the time yes.
Click to expand...
From one perspective I've had a lot of calls from GC's that are complaining about "those stupid AFCIs" always tripping on their table saws, when I check every time, wire terminations loose, receptacle or breaker, tighten to torque spec, even without listed specs was able to get 1/4 to 1/2 turn, miracle no more tripping even with their old saw.
Afa cable ties, never even looked for listing, I'll have to check next time to see.
 
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