Listed cable ties

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jimport

Senior Member
Location
Outside Baltimore Maryland
Occupation
Master Electrician
Just going through the pdf of the upcoming 2017 changes and keep seeing a requirement for cable ties to now be listed. Were there really that many issues that we now need listed cable ties? I am not talking about using UV resistant outside.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
Surely that's only for stuff like plenum rated ties...?

As far as I know there's nothing requiring any listing for a mechanism to secure cable assemblies: There's millions of miles of MC held in place with rodbuster's tie wire. Why would zip ties matter?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
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Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
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Licensed Electrician
If this is the way the code is going it will lose credibility IMO. There have already been too many design issues and manufacturer driven changes included already.

What do you mean, "If this is the way the code is going"?

It's been going this way for at least four cycles. Why do we have in use covers, pain in the neck RT fittings, AFCIs, giant standby generators, roof top derating?

And on top of that, despite its claim not to be, it is evolving into a design manual.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
Just going through the pdf of the upcoming 2017 changes and keep seeing a requirement for cable ties to now be listed. Were there really that many issues that we now need listed cable ties? I am not talking about using UV resistant outside.
Cable ties have been listed for years, but they have not been listed for securing and supporting cable wiring methods. The new rules in the xxx.30 sections of the cable wiring method articles require the use of cable ties listed for the purpose.

The common ties that we use are listed as type 2 or type 21. The ones listed for securing and supporting are listed as types 2S or 21S. You will find the type number somewhere on the packaging.

The following is from the UL White Book information for "Positioning Devices" (ZODZ)
Type 2 — A Type 2 product retains 100% of its declared loop tensile strength (cable ties) or declared mechanical strength (fixing devices) after test conditions. The declared maximum operating temperature for products designated and marked as "Type 2" is based solely on performance criteria in ANSI/UL 62275. The polymeric material comprising the product has not been separately investigated for long-term thermal properties according to ANSI/UL 746B, "Polymeric Materials - Long Term Property Evaluations."
Type 21 — A Type 21 product retains 100% of its declared loop tensile strength (cable ties) or declared mechanical strength (fixing devices) after test conditions. The declared maximum operating temperature for products designated and marked as "Type 21" is limited to the Relative Thermal Index - Strength (RTI - Strength) at 1.5 mm (0.06 in.) thickness for the polymeric material that comprises the product. The RTI - Strength for the material is determined by separate investigation for long-term thermal properties according to ANSI/UL 746B, and the declared maximum operating temperature of the product is based on the performance criteria in ANSI/UL 62275.
Type 2S and Type 21S — Type 2S and Type 21S products meet the same requirements as Type 2 and Type 21 products, respectively, but have been additionally investigated for use as primary support for a flexible conduit, flexible tubing, or cable in accordance with the NEC. Such products may also be marked "Support" in lieu of the "S" designation.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
Surely that's only for stuff like plenum rated ties...?

As far as I know there's nothing requiring any listing for a mechanism to secure cable assemblies: There's millions of miles of MC held in place with rodbuster's tie wire. Why would zip ties matter?
The following is from Article 330 in the 2017 NEC.
330.30 Securing and Supporting.
(A) General. Type MC cable shall be supported and secured by staples; cable ties listed and identified for securement and support; straps, hangers, or similar fittings; or other approved means designed and installed so as not to damage the cable.

The same wording is in other cable and flexible conduit wiring method articles.

As far as the plenum rated ones, look close at the package (often small print on the back side)...many standard cable ties are listed for use in 300.22(C) applications. The same manufacturers also have cable ties marked on the package as "plenum". These ties are much more expensive than the standard ones. You can save on costs by taking a close look at the package information.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Who is going to check to see that you used "listed" cable ties rather than the ones you bought at HD ? Are the "listed" ones clearly marked and easily identifiable ?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The example Don gave is a specific use that the tie must be listed for. There could be other similar uses that must also be listed. But I'd guess if you are using ties to manage conductors in a panel, wireway, etc. whatever you have been using before is still fine.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
330.30 Securing and Supporting.
(A) General. Type MC cable shall be supported and secured by staples; cable ties listed and identified for securement and support; straps, hangers, or similar fittings; or other approved means designed and installed so as not to damage the cable.

Seems to me an inspector can simply decide unlisted cable ties are approved. :cool:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Who is going to check to see that you used "listed" cable ties rather than the ones you bought at HD ? Are the "listed" ones clearly marked and easily identifiable ?
I'm sure there will be inspectors that ask questions if there is no distinctive way of identifying what they are. Someday we will get to the point that the inspectors will be watching us the entire project and not just coming in after work is done and looking at what was done.

2017 also has changes related to tightening torque of terminations. Don't have copy to quote anything from, but in CEU class I took a few months ago, sounds like one should at least be able to produce a torque screwdriver if an inspector asks any questions on the topic. There is no way they can properly enforce requiredd torquing methods without being there to witness the connection being made though, other then some terminations where the fastener head breaks off when proper torque is reached.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
What's so different about the S rating, can't they just make them all comply to the S standard and K.I.S.S.? :slaphead:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What's so different about the S rating, can't they just make them all comply to the S standard and K.I.S.S.? :slaphead:
It likely ends up (and maybe already has been) that those you buy at the electrical supply house will typically be the S rated, but those really cheap ones you buy at other places are not S rated. These are used by more then just electricians and some places will always sell the cheap ones.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
It likely ends up (and maybe already has been) that those you buy at the electrical supply house will typically be the S rated, but those really cheap ones you buy at other places are not S rated. These are used by more then just electricians and some places will always sell the cheap ones.


I was thinking about that like the ones that you get at a place like Harbor Freight but those probably have no listing at all. ;)
 

jumper

Senior Member
What's so different about the S rating, can't they just make them all comply to the S standard and K.I.S.S.? :slaphead:

Only thing I find in a quick search is this from NEMA:
Additional Type classifications. Type 2S and Type 21S
indicate that cable ties are suitable for securing and sup-
porting conduit and cables in building construction in ac-
cordance with the requirements in relevant national elec-
trical installation codes.

With this table footnote for XXS ties:

Loop tensile strength classification for cable ties maintained at or greater
than 220 N ( 23 kg ) ( 5 0 lbs ) for an additional 5 minutes

I guess that extra 5 mins. is somehow important to someone somewhere.:huh:

http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/Cable tie type classifications 2015-12-04.pdf
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Stainless steel ties likely meet the listing requirement, start using those for everything so your employees don't mess up and use the wrong ones in the wrong place.:)
 

stevenje

Senior Member
Location
Yachats Oregon
2017 also has changes related to tightening torque of terminations. Don't have copy to quote anything from, but in CEU class I took a few months ago, sounds like one should at least be able to produce a torque screwdriver if an inspector asks any questions on the topic. There is no way they can properly enforce requiredd torquing methods without being there to witness the connection being made though, other then some terminations where the fastener head breaks off when proper torque is reached.

What's next....a wirenut torque requirement?
 

jumper

Senior Member
It is 110.14(D).

I can not find a copy of the exact wording, but it basically says that if a torque value is stated or marked on a termination device or such by the manufacturer then one must use a calibrated tool to ensure that value is properly achieved.
 
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