kidde smoke alarms (junk?)

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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I always have customers call me this time of year with smokes going off in the middle of the night randomly. I think it has a lot to do with the humidity


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Pure speculation on my part, but it may also have to do with spring cleaning and whatever plants are in bloom in your area. Photoionization detectors cannot distinguish smoke from other particulates of the same size such as dust and pollen.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Pure speculation on my part, but it may also have to do with spring cleaning and whatever plants are in bloom in your area. Photoionization detectors cannot distinguish smoke from other particulates of the same size such as dust and pollen.
After all these years these simple devices cannot tell the diff.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
After all these years these simple devices cannot tell the diff.
They were only designed to detect small particles, not to tell you what those particles are. It may be possible to add on some more components and software and a couple thousand to the sales price and do that though.

Seed processing plant (actually popcorn as well as edible beans) I have done work at has machines that sort product based on recognition of the item as it passes by. Doesn't do this at that small of a particle size, but still pretty expensive machine in comparison to your average smoke detector. 10 bucks vs 250 or 500K maybe isn't that much for some though?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
They were only designed to detect small particles, not to tell you what those particles are. It may be possible to add on some more components and software and a couple thousand to the sales price and do that though.

Seed processing plant (actually popcorn as well as edible beans) I have done work at has machines that sort product based on recognition of the item as it passes by. Doesn't do this at that small of a particle size, but still pretty expensive machine in comparison to your average smoke detector. 10 bucks vs 250 or 500K maybe isn't that much for some though?
Multi-criteria smoke detectors can do a much better job of discriminating the signal source, using red and blue light, CO detection, and heat detection. They are also a lot pricier. The Siemens product line shows a 2.5X between your run-of-the-mill photo detector and the multi-criteria detector. I have a very old price list that shows a trade net of $250 for the fancy detector. And photo detectors are not that common in consumer products. Kidde sells a dual photo/ionization smoke alarm for $23 vs $13 for the bottom-of-the-line ionization alarm, both not including CO, voice notification, or any other bells and whistles.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Multi-criteria smoke detectors can do a much better job of discriminating the signal source, using red and blue light, CO detection, and heat detection. They are also a lot pricier. The Siemens product line shows a 2.5X between your run-of-the-mill photo detector and the multi-criteria detector. I have a very old price list that shows a trade net of $250 for the fancy detector. And photo detectors are not that common in consumer products. Kidde sells a dual photo/ionization smoke alarm for $23 vs $13 for the bottom-of-the-line ionization alarm, both not including CO, voice notification, or any other bells and whistles.
Outside of the tech junkies that want something just because it is fascinating to them most others just want something that will wake them up when they are asleep if it detects anything abnormal, may be fine with something that cost a little more than the bottom market price but don't feel they need the absolute best thing out there either. Many don't even know there are advantages and disadvantages to having photoelectric vs ionization types in certain areas but also good to have a combination of both throughout the house.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Outside of the tech junkies that want something just because it is fascinating to them most others just want something that will wake them up when they are asleep if it detects anything abnormal, may be fine with something that cost a little more than the bottom market price but don't feel they need the absolute best thing out there either. Many don't even know there are advantages and disadvantages to having photoelectric vs ionization types in certain areas but also good to have a combination of both throughout the house.
If half their market demographic showed up at company headquarters with pitchforks, torches, tar and feathers, the smoke alarm folks would deliver a much better product. As it is, I don't know of any state that doesn't mandate smoke alarms and/or CO alarms for residential occupancies. When people have to buy your product, product improvement isn't high on the To-Do list, especially if the complaint rate is way below 1%.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
When people have to buy your product, product improvement isn't high on the To-Do list, especially if the complaint rate is way below 1%.
This is why I mentioned that the NFPA needs to pick up the ball. It's under their purview. End users don't even know the crap they are buying is either faulty in some way, or simply does not work at all. Who would ever know if the only thing using power from a wired smoke alarm was a green LED and a buzzer that sounded when you pressed a "test" button.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
People don't want false alarms but at same time they want it to "work" and a majority want all the things that are not somewhat vanity items to have little cost. Now look at AFCI and GFCI and if you explain things they like the fact you are giving them some extra protection, many probably balk some at the cost, then if they have frequent trips (even if it is for things it is supposed to trip for) they hate the things.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
This is why I mentioned that the NFPA needs to pick up the ball. It's under their purview. End users don't even know the crap they are buying is either faulty in some way, or simply does not work at all. Who would ever know if the only thing using power from a wired smoke alarm was a green LED and a buzzer that sounded when you pressed a "test" button.
I don't think this is an NFPA thing, it's a UL thing. NFPA tells you where to put them, UL tells you what they have to do.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
I don't think this is an NFPA thing, it's a UL thing. NFPA tells you where to put them, UL tells you what they have to do.
It kinda is because NFPA is a main source of reporting and such, and they also provide all the guidelines (where to put them, how to test them, etc etc).
How it's used and to make sure they work....... is the most important parts of "the thingy in a box", etc.

But if you think NFPA should be collaboraing with UL, then so be it, that makes good sense.
 
Update: So I ended up replacing the 7 units with new ones. Recall client took them all down after they went off the first time so I didnt know which one was triggering the event. The supply house didnt really want to replace them, said call kidde. Called but didnt have time to sit on hold, got pissed off and hung up. Figured Ill prolly just end up eating the $90. Just talked to client and they went off again last night :mad: On hold with kidde right now, will demand money back for all of them.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Update: So I ended up replacing the 7 units with new ones. Recall client took them all down after they went off the first time so I didnt know which one was triggering the event. The supply house didnt really want to replace them, said call kidde. Called but didnt have time to sit on hold, got pissed off and hung up. Figured Ill prolly just end up eating the $90. Just talked to client and they went off again last night :mad: On hold with kidde right now, will demand money back for all of them.
Which specific model, and what mfgr date do they have? Maybe there's a supply chain issue and you are getting some knock-off items?
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Update: So I ended up replacing the 7 units with new ones. Recall client took them all down after they went off the first time so I didnt know which one was triggering the event. The supply house didnt really want to replace them, said call kidde. Called but didnt have time to sit on hold, got pissed off and hung up. Figured Ill prolly just end up eating the $90. Just talked to client and they went off again last night :mad: On hold with kidde right now, will demand money back for all of them.
Considering the number of Kidde smoke alarms we install without call backs I'm going to say there is either a wiring issue or the customer is causing them triggering them somehow. Most likely if you replace with BRK you will get the same call back.
 
Considering the number of Kidde smoke alarms we install without call backs I'm going to say there is either a wiring issue or the customer is causing them triggering them somehow. Most likely if you replace with BRK you will get the same call back.

I have also installed lots over the years with few issues. IF this was the only location I may agree with you, but note same thing happened on another recent job.
 
So I talked to Kidde, and the lady gave me instructions for requesting a refund. Ill be sending the original 7, the new 7, and the 2 combos back. I am going to try BRK, maybe they have figured out how to make alarms that dont go off from high humidity/pollen/dust/turbo encabulator exhaust/pentamonohydrate einsteinium triple-trioxide emissions/etc...
 

RCC1

Member
Location
Michigan
Occupation
Retired - E&I Maintenance Superintendent
I had similar thing happen to me a few years ago with the Kidde ionization style detectors. It was my daughters house, so I knew I was going to have to resolve it some how. They only had three rooms and a hallway with the smoke alarms all daisy chained to go off together. The alarms would always false trigger between 3:00 AM to 4:AM. After some tracking down, and a lot of reading on the web, I started keeping track of the symptoms more. Noticed that it was always the same location (back bedroom), so I purchased a new unit. That did not help. I tried moving the detectors around. It seems that what ever detector I had in that location would would act up. Other things I tried. Checked all the wiring connections. No help. They said to seal the holes in the ceiling box where the Romex came in (to stop the air flow from attic). That did not help. Vacuumed the detectors, no help. Did find a spider in the detector once (really thought that was going to be it). Still had false triggers. Finally out of desperation, I started looking for other detector styles. There were three out there that would work with the existing system, the ionization type, the photo electric detector type, and the heat detector type. Each had it pulses and minus. To reduce the sensitivity, I changed just that detector to a photoelectric style. That seemed to do the trick. It has been two years now without a call back. My next step would have been to install the heat detector style (rate of rise).
 
I had similar thing happen to me a few years ago with the Kidde ionization style detectors. It was my daughters house, so I knew I was going to have to resolve it some how. They only had three rooms and a hallway with the smoke alarms all daisy chained to go off together. The alarms would always false trigger between 3:00 AM to 4:AM. After some tracking down, and a lot of reading on the web, I started keeping track of the symptoms more. Noticed that it was always the same location (back bedroom), so I purchased a new unit. That did not help. I tried moving the detectors around. It seems that what ever detector I had in that location would would act up. Other things I tried. Checked all the wiring connections. No help. They said to seal the holes in the ceiling box where the Romex came in (to stop the air flow from attic). That did not help. Vacuumed the detectors, no help. Did find a spider in the detector once (really thought that was going to be it). Still had false triggers. Finally out of desperation, I started looking for other detector styles. There were three out there that would work with the existing system, the ionization type, the photo electric detector type, and the heat detector type. Each had it pulses and minus. To reduce the sensitivity, I changed just that detector to a photoelectric style. That seemed to do the trick. It has been two years now without a call back. My next step would have been to install the heat detector style (rate of rise).
Interesting thanks.
 
An update: So I did end up replacing all the units with BRK. Everything was good for a month, and then they went off one night. Manager lady there said they were having issues at another of the client's houses down the road. Then today, an apartment I did 2 years ago, they went off last night multiple times. What the hell is going on here?? I have been in electrical for about 22 years now, and I only recall a couple of issues with this in the past - like literally I can only think of one, but I say a couple because I could be forgetting one :unsure:.
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
An update: So I did end up replacing all the units with BRK. Everything was good for a month, and then they went off one night. Manager lady there said they were having issues at another of the client's houses down the road. Then today, an apartment I did 2 years ago, they went off last night multiple times. What the hell is going on here?? I have been in electrical for about 22 years now, and I only recall a couple of issues with this in the past - like literally I can only think of one, but I say a couple because I could be forgetting one :unsure:.

Nuisance this, nuisance that, this s..t is out of control!
 
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