Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

[copper123]

Ceiling fan installation.
All high scale, military base work.
Remove old fixture from rough in.
Save fixture.
Demo old box
Use all existing wiring.
Install, old work ceiling fan bracket box. The type that slips into the existing hole, you turn the allthread screw and the bracket friction fits into the floor joist.
reinstall all old wires into new fan box.
Assemble new 48" fan with accessory light canopy. Three globe fixture.
4 fans per unit, building are occupied, contractor will give owner heads up when you are coming.
Completely clean up mess, tenets will not move furniture out of the way.
550 fans total.
I bid per fan.
1 hour assembly
1 hour demo, installation and clean up
.75 logistics of occupied building.

 

[celtic]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Ceiling height...gotta know that...do I need a scissor lift or a 10' ladder?

THEN you get a number

 

[copper123]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

4 foot ladder would be great.
remember you don't build them at the residence, you build them at a spare garage in the area and haul them over.

 

[celtic]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

About $200/fan.

I don't understand why the fans will be built "remote"?
You and a helper IN the unit will increase speed...helper builds first fan, you move furniture/demo 1st light put in new brace, helper starts building next fan/moveing furniture, fan goes up, helper cleans up debris/replaces furniture...onto next...as you put up last fan, helper is removing all debris from unit.
You could easily bang out a complete unit a day AND have a decent lunch/break.
At 3 hours per/fan..x4 fans = 12 hrs /2 men = 6 hours each/day..2 hours for lunch/breaks. $800 a day.
Get 1/2 a unit extra in there (eat on the fly) and the number goes up for you...3 units every 2 days (6 fans per day) = $1200 a day for and extra hour or two of work.
I recall a job I did about 12 years ago...me and a helper...3 fans done in 45 minutes. I did have the benefit of the HO wisely opting for fan braces to be installed during the construction of the home...helper builds, I demo/mount..lickity split we're outta there. Obviously, this was a diamond in rough...but the "attack plan" remains the same. YMMV.

 

[coppertreeelectric]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

I don't see it taking a full day to do 4 fans. Bid for the full job or by unit and bang it out.

It shouldn't take 8 hrs to do 4 fans even with a 1hr lunch. I wouldn't accept less then 6 fans with a lunch break and thats with a one man crew.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

I think that one journeyman and a helper should be popping these at 1 per hour.I am assuming the fans are all alike so after first few speed should pick up.Here we would charge $100 each plus box and any other material.I would not assimble at shop,they will get bent or scratched.My daughter at 16 needed some spending money so took her to job to assimble fans.She had never done this before and had put 4 fans together in a little over an hour.I would have been happy at 1 hour a piece.If 2 men can not turn out one an hour something is wrong.Would go in with 4 drop cloths to make clean up be simple.Small shop vac if needed.So what ever you can charge for 2 men for an hour seems fair.

 

[copper123]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Yep, yep, yep.
My bad, on all accounts.
Bid came in at 190 per fan. I was 215
Hind sight, 20/20.
Thanks so much for the input. Specially the daughter thing. My problem was a was bidding for two JW's and a little timid about the rework wiring. Power in, power out, SL, short conductors ect.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Originally posted by copper123:
Ceiling fan installation.
All high scale Three globe fixture.
4 fans per unit, building are occupied,
Completely clean up mess, tenets will not move furniture out of the way 1 hour assembly
1 hour demo, installation and clean up
.75 logistics of occupied building.

Kinda tuff on one man,not knowing what you might be moving around in the -four locations- of same dwelling unit...Could get mighty expensive..Wouldn't want that -Bull in the China Shop- senario, going on in my home..

 

[celtic]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

I would actually LOVE to see someone take down a fixture, remove box and wiring, install new fan brace and wiring, build and mount fan w/light kit in an hour in my area.

I can only assume the conditions of your job would be PEFECT. No wood lathe & plaster, old box mounted to side of beam (not under it w/pancake box), no cloth covered cable, one cable in box, etc.

This are not the conditions I usually come across....in my area these are old houses (60+ years), 3000 layers of paint, plaster and wood lathe, plaster ceiling medallions, old brittle cloth cables nice and crispy from 3 100w bulbs in each socket, at least 4 wires in each box (1 in, 1 out, 1 to SL, 1 to recept.), etc.

...but we all base our prices on the conditions we will encounter.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Everything depends on where you are located and who you have working for you.They need to be motivated as well.On a job like that the right men with right tools will make the differance.Perhaps pay the men piece work

 

[paul32]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Originally posted by celtic:
I can only assume the conditions of your job would be PEFECT. No wood lathe & plaster, old box mounted to side of beam (not under it w/pancake box), no cloth covered cable, one cable in box, etc.

What's wrong with the pancake? I would call that PERFECT. Can easily mount the fan right to the beam/joist/truss.

Is there any old work fan box that can mount to the side? I'm not sure I trust the type copper123 mentioned. Even better would be a way to secure the fan to the side beam and not replace the box, but I don't see any way to do that.

 

[celtic]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Originally posted by paul32:

Originally posted by celtic:
I can only assume the conditions of your job would be PEFECT. No wood lathe & plaster, old box mounted to side of beam (not under it w/pancake box), no cloth covered cable, one cable in box, etc.

What's wrong with the pancake? I would call that PERFECT. Can easily mount the fan right to the beam/joist/truss.

Box fill is what's wrong w/pancake boxes...6 -8 #12 in a pancake....good luck and have fun

Originally posted by paul32:

Is there any old work fan box that can mount to the side? I'm not sure I trust the type copper123 mentioned. Even better would be a way to secure the fan to the side beam and not replace the box, but I don't see any way to do that.

The type cooper123 mentioned

( (Super Fan Brace) )is rated at 70# (fan) to 150# (fixture) and has a 1/2" threaded rod running through the support bar that requires a 1" wrench to tighen. When I put these things in, after tightening, I hang off the bar(kind of like a monkey) to "test" it...I weigh in at 200#. When installed properly, they are excellant. (Sorry for the linking to big blue box, only place I could the info/pic quickly)

They DO make an odd shaped box to replace the pancake (I think Reiker is also the manufac. of this). This box resembeles an "h"...the upright portion is like a "side car" that gives additional cu. in. for "extra wires...the "upside down "u" is the actual "pancake". (No info/pic available).

You gotta know your "enemy"...in this case (and probably copper123's case)...the enemy is the old cloth covered wires and too many wires jammed in pancake boxes.

 

[copper123]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Hey guys,
Those are exactly the fan boxes I was supposed to use. The building are pretty old, I never got a chance to look at the wiring. I do know that the fixtures have been changed a couple of times allready by in house electricians over the years. I was really concerned about short conductors and the ability to get them landed back into the box. Especialy if there were multiple entries. I have never been able understand why some electricians insist on cutting the wires entering a box so short. I am been extremely anal on traing new guys on how easy it is to make up a box and to put the conductors in clean and fairly long. My first JW made us always fold the conductors. Each type of box you had a different length that you cut the wires. But he also wanted two folds back into the box and the wire nuts had to stand strait up and tucked neatly back. They also had to be able to shed water as he said. Top of the nut was up. Also, on houses, he would make us tuck the wires in the box the same way the circuit ran. If it ran from left to right then the bare equipment grounds were on the left, nuets in the middle, hot conductors on the right. And we always pigtailed everything and twisted the wires together with our kliens. But please lets not get into a discussion about that. We all have read the tons of about twisting wires. Anyhow, even with difficulties, I think I should have bid the job at 2 hours. As a few folks have pointed out, the learnig curve would have helped tremedously!

 

[celtic]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Originally posted by copper123:

Those are exactly the fan boxes I was supposed to use. The building are pretty old, I never got a chance to look at the wiring.

Now HOW did I know that?
Oh yeah...there is a base local to me that I recently did some HV work at. In just looking at the conditions I was in...I knew what the housing must be like (it also doesn't hurt that I spent many summers at Ft. Hancock/Sandy Hook here in NJ and toured those facilities extensively).

Originally posted by copper123:
I do know that the fixtures have been changed a couple of times allready by in house electricians over the years. I was really concerned about short conductors and the ability to get them landed back into the box. Especialy if there were multiple entries.

I agree...knowing the wiring is old and fixtures have been replaced at least once leads to one thing - more time.

Originally posted by copper123:
Anyhow, even with difficulties, I think I should have bid the job at 2 hours. As a few folks have pointed out, the learnig curve would have helped tremedously!

Maybe at 2 hrs/per you would have gotten the job...I'm sure I could send you a shirt or two for when you would have lost yours.

Don't beat yourself up over this. If you had low balled it and got the job, you would be worse off than giving an accurate price and not getting the job. You had an idea of what the job was going to be like when you put your bid in (you knew your enemy). Can the other bidders say that?
You win some you lose some.

Throw the next job/bid up for a future discussion and I'll toss out a number for you....we'll see how we do ( I was only "off" by $10...not a bad guesstimate for "sight unseen")

 

[celtic]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Here's a really good pic of the box copper123 was going to use:

That's a pretty hefty box w/plenty of room!

Looks like Reiker was bought by P&S...or is a subsid. of them.

 

[clayton]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

ive never seen a hanger like that ,
how would those feet be used??
do they hang over the trusses,
pushed into them or
sit on top??

 

[iwire]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

Clayton believe it or not that is an 'old work' type fan support.

The 'feet' sit on top of the plaster and lath or sheetrock that makes up the ceiling.

With the bar in place and the box removed you spin the hex shaped bar which expands the bracket into the wood joists, once this is done you bolt the box onto the bracket.

Once you have done one it is quick and easy, it is also very strong. It will support a couple hundred pounds no problem.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Just for fun, part 2(bid) but quick and easy!

I used the same kind when I installed the fan in my bedroom. Works like a charm. Don't even ened to go up in the attic to install it. Kind of pricey - like $15, but very easy to use.