Ive got another idea brewing!

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Well I went for those $25 dollar panels. Only need 55, but he had 105 left, I said i would take them all. Guess they were on a large rooftop PV system on a building that got demoed as part of some improvement to the PA turnpike. Same price per sq foot as the metal roofing would have been, 1.50/sq foot. Got to drive to PA to get them, 5 hour drive, Amish area. Good thing to do on a rainy day, kinda looking forward to it.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Well I went for those $25 dollar panels. Only need 55, but he had 105 left, I said i would take them all. Guess they were on a large rooftop PV system on a building that got demoed as part of some improvement to the PA turnpike. Same price per sq foot as the metal roofing would have been, 1.50/sq foot. Got to drive to PA to get them, 5 hour drive, Amish area. Good thing to do on a rainy day, kinda looking forward to it.
I think it's awesome they will get re-used.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I think it's awesome they will get re-used.
Me too.

I wouldn't think there was much of a secondary market for PV panels, with the exception of buildings being demolished. I mean, it's kind of like a light bulb. If it works, why replace it, and if it doesn't work, it's not like you can fix it. Is there another dynamic at work here?
 
Me too.

I wouldn't think there was much of a secondary market for PV panels, with the exception of buildings being demolished. I mean, it's kind of like a light bulb. If it works, why replace it, and if it doesn't work, it's not like you can fix it. Is there another dynamic at work here?
I saw some large lots of panels that had defects, such as snail trails and cracking vinyl back sheet. Supposedly they were still working so I don't know if they were replaced preemptively or under warranty or what. And then there are the ones I got, where the building was being demolished. I have heard of some large ground Mount sites getting dismantled, but I don't know what the backstory is with those.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I saw some large lots of panels that had defects, such as snail trails and cracking vinyl back sheet. Supposedly they were still working so I don't know if they were replaced preemptively or under warranty or what. And then there are the ones I got, where the building was being demolished. I have heard of some large ground Mount sites getting dismantled, but I don't know what the backstory is with those.
Well, that must be an interesting story. Off hand, I can't see why anyone would do that. It's got to be like 99% or better of the cost of ownership is sunk costs in panels and infrastructure. I don't know what the maintenance costs per kW-hr might be, but even with a rate structure change, any money you get is good money. Taking the panels down doesn't change whatever your financing costs are; the bank still wants their money.
 

Ravenvalor

Senior Member
Just been thinking more about this general idea of using cheap(er) used PV panels as roofing. I really like the idea of using a product that already exists instead of using more virgin metal or plastic.

The market price of used panels seems to be around $45-$50 per panel, which is about $2.60/sq foot. Like I said, I found some for $25 a panel but that is unusually cheap. The cheap galvanized thru fastener roofing is $1.50/SQ ft. Standing seam metal is quite a bit more. There are some "balance of system" materials which are more likely to be less for the PV roof. For example with metal, you typically would need 2x4 purlins every 2 feet, and you could likely skip those with the PV which could be a substantial cost savings. PV would require some caulk, foil tape, or flashings depending upon the sealing method chosen (I would probably just use outdoor rated foil tape). Both methods would require fasteners of course let's just call that a wash both ways.
Will you be installing a rail system like Iron Ridge or can you fabricate your own underside of rafter strapping system?
 
Will you be installing a rail system like Iron Ridge or can you fabricate your own underside of rafter strapping system?
I'll just lay them directly on the rafters and probably attach them with this or something similar. That is what I did on the other part of the building

 

Phil Timmons

Senior Member
Location
DFW
Occupation
Depends on the pay and the day
Love the hacking . . . but as a caution . . . smart(er than me) Structural Engineers tell me that the sheathing layer (you are avoiding, right?) is part of the overall structural integrity of the completed roof.
 
Love the hacking . . . but as a caution . . . smart(er than me) Structural Engineers tell me that the sheathing layer (you are avoiding, right?) is part of the overall structural integrity of the completed roof.
Around here, unheated Buildings that have trusses and metal roofing ("pole barns") almost never have sheathing on them. Per the engineer at the trust company, they need 2x4 purlins every 2 ft but he said they could be on the underside of the top member.
 

Phil Timmons

Senior Member
Location
DFW
Occupation
Depends on the pay and the day
Around here, unheated Buildings that have trusses and metal roofing ("pole barns") almost never have sheathing on them. Per the engineer at the trust company, they need 2x4 purlins every 2 ft but he said they could be on the underside of the top member.
Understood. But (again) Structural Engineers I work with tell me that the metal panels that you and I are thinking about skipping (because I have pondered your path, as well), once it is screwed down . . . is an important part of what I think they call "shear strength." Maybe think how a sheet of plywood keeps a Rectangle Shape -- rather than turning into a parallelogram? It works like for the whole building during Wind Loads. Maybe ask them about that? I am just thinking we may need to add some form of diagonal bracing.

This link is about Walls and Shear Strength, but it has some pictures that sort of show the idea . . . https://blog.buildllc.com/2014/05/shearwalls-101-why-you-cant-have-a-window-there/

But really, I think the path you are on is great. To make Solar BE the roof, rather than another layer ON the roof -- seems like GREAT Materials and Cost savings.

Any format you would prefer for ideal shape / format for such Solar PV? I am thinking about 2 foot width (6 cells wide) rather 1 meter is preferred, at least in the US. Makes it MUCH more structurally rigid under wind (down) and up-lift loads. Maybe 2 feet X 4, or 6, or 8 or 10 feet? Could load up easy from the bottom eve towards the peak, and then have a finished clamp down and seal at the peak?
 
Understood. But (again) Structural Engineers I work with tell me that the metal panels that you and I are thinking about skipping (because I have pondered your path, as well), once it is screwed down . . . is an important part of what I think they call "shear strength." Maybe think how a sheet of plywood keeps a Rectangle Shape -- rather than turning into a parallelogram? It works like for the whole building during Wind Loads. Maybe ask them about that? I am just thinking we may need to add some form of diagonal bracing.

This link is about Walls and Shear Strength, but it has some pictures that sort of show the idea . . . https://blog.buildllc.com/2014/05/shearwalls-101-why-you-cant-have-a-window-there/

But really, I think the path you are on is great. To make Solar BE the roof, rather than another layer ON the roof -- seems like GREAT Materials and Cost savings.

Any format you would prefer for ideal shape / format for such Solar PV? I am thinking about 2 foot width (6 cells wide) rather 1 meter is preferred, at least in the US. Makes it MUCH more structurally rigid under wind (down) and up-lift loads. Maybe 2 feet X 4, or 6, or 8 or 10 feet? Could load up easy from the bottom eve towards the peak, and then have a finished clamp down and seal at the peak?
I dont believe so. The engineer at the truss company said I just need purlins every two feet, either top or bottom of the top truss member. I told him I was using solar panels AS the roof.

I dont really have a preference on panel sizes. I guess for a retrofit type application perhaps multiples of 2 would be good, but if you have purlins anyway, you can make anything work without much trouble.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Understood. But (again) Structural Engineers I work with tell me that the metal panels that you and I are thinking about skipping (because I have pondered your path, as well), once it is screwed down . . . is an important part of what I think they call "shear strength." Maybe think how a sheet of plywood keeps a Rectangle Shape -- rather than turning into a parallelogram? It works like for the whole building during Wind Loads. Maybe ask them about that? I am just thinking we may need to add some form of diagonal bracing.

This link is about Walls and Shear Strength, but it has some pictures that sort of show the idea . . . https://blog.buildllc.com/2014/05/shearwalls-101-why-you-cant-have-a-window-there/

But really, I think the path you are on is great. To make Solar BE the roof, rather than another layer ON the roof -- seems like GREAT Materials and Cost savings.

Any format you would prefer for ideal shape / format for such Solar PV? I am thinking about 2 foot width (6 cells wide) rather 1 meter is preferred, at least in the US. Makes it MUCH more structurally rigid under wind (down) and up-lift loads. Maybe 2 feet X 4, or 6, or 8 or 10 feet? Could load up easy from the bottom eve towards the peak, and then have a finished clamp down and seal at the peak?
The purlins electrofelon is talking about perform the anti-racking function usually handled by the roof deck. Although, at every 2 feet, that's a lot of board feet of lumber.

 

Phil Timmons

Senior Member
Location
DFW
Occupation
Depends on the pay and the day
The purlins electrofelon is talking about perform the anti-racking function usually handled by the roof deck. Although, at every 2 feet, that's a lot of board feet of lumber.

Understood. We have also used (big happy breath) Unistrut (choirs of angels sing) for this type stuff. Creates hard mount point(s) as part of the structure.

Wonder if some corner gussets on the framing would help things, too. (sort of fun, using all these carpentry / framing words).

Maybe I can frame / wind load model this in Revit. Dunno, never tried. I usually just do the Electrical portions.

I am thinking the Solar PV Panels / Modules (in this case) should be allowed "float" or shift a little during wind loads? So the glass does not get stressed? Yunno in typical ground mounts, we clamp things down pretty tight.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Understood. We have also used (big happy breath) Unistrut (choirs of angels sing) for this type stuff. Creates hard mount point(s) as part of the structure.

Wonder if some corner gussets on the framing would help things, too. (sort of fun, using all these carpentry / framing words).

Maybe I can frame / wind load model this in Revit. Dunno, never tried. I usually just do the Electrical portions.

I am thinking the Solar PV Panels / Modules (in this case) should be allowed "float" or shift a little during wind loads? So the glass does not get stressed? Yunno in typical ground mounts, we clamp things down pretty tight.
I don't know if they are still available, but you used to could get mid clamps as long (or as wide, depending on how you look at it) as the long dimension of your modules so that you didn't have that gap between modules that lets the water though the array.
 

Phil Timmons

Senior Member
Location
DFW
Occupation
Depends on the pay and the day
I don't know if they are still available, but you used to could get mid clamps as long (or as wide, depending on how you look at it) as the long dimension of your modules so that you didn't have that gap between modules that lets the water though the array.
Yeah, I think getting it water-tight -- or at least rain-tight should be a do-able thing. Probably some minimum slope design would be good - like maybe a minimum of 15 degrees -- but for optimal Solar in the US more likely 30 degrees or more. For Texas (my base) Snow build-up and leaking is not so much a consideration, but maybe should consider that for further North.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The purlins electrofelon is talking about perform the anti-racking function usually handled by the roof deck. Although, at every 2 feet, that's a lot of board feet of lumber.

Without any diagonal members, I do not see how the purlins add any signiificant anti-racking element other than the torque resitance provided by a multiple nailing pattern at each crossing.
I think fewer purlins plus a couple of diagonal braces would provide better anti-racking with less lumber. But it would not provide as many potential attachment points for the panel rack mounting.
 

Phil Timmons

Senior Member
Location
DFW
Occupation
Depends on the pay and the day
Without any diagonal members, I do not see how the purlins add any signiificant anti-racking element other than the torque resitance provided by a multiple nailing pattern at each crossing.
I think fewer purlins plus a couple of diagonal braces would provide better anti-racking with less lumber. But it would not provide as many potential attachment points for the panel rack mounting.
Yeah, I figure folks here are more about the Electrical and the re-use, etc. This is why we keep friendly relations with the Structural and Civil folks.

Another ponderment for all this . . . . the Building and Fire Codes (not so much the Electrical / NEC, per se). Yunno on a typical roof layout, we put a 3 foot walk-way up each side, and a 3 path across the top. (and 18 inch + 18 inch up the valleys). That is all for Fire Fighter access. So for this, would we intentionally build a dedicated walkway around and across the top?

How about Rapid Shutdown? The DC shutdown requirement for the array(s) on any roof top. Would that still apply when the Array IS the rooftop? If so, would you do individual shut-downs (DC, like Tigo) -- or Microinverters -- or Big Inverters, right in the "attic" . . . that might be cheapest?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
How about Rapid Shutdown? The DC shutdown requirement for the array(s) on any roof top. Would that still apply when the Array IS the rooftop? If so, would you do individual shut-downs (DC, like Tigo) -- or Microinverters -- or Big Inverters, right in the "attic" . . . that might be cheapest?
The extremes are simple - RSD is required for PV on buildings and not for ground mounted PV - but the dividing line between where it is and is not required is not that clear to me.
 
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