Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
It's not a tap if there are breakers. It's only a tap if the wires are tied together without an OCPD.
Is this a violation
- Thread starter nickelec
- Start date
- Status
It's not a tap if there are breakers. It's only a tap if the wires are tied together without an OCPD.
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
2020 has a change. You're still allowed two to six service disconnects, but they can't be in the same enclosure.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
That's not what I mean. There's no single service disconnecting means. OP has two via a bus'd service panel.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
They are tied together pre OCPD via the panel bus's. Pop the breakers out and the SEC's are basically split via panel bus. The OCPD's sit between service and feeder side. This may be non-violation, but NEC words says "service disconnect means", and I take that as a form of disco, a single disco to disconnect service. I could just be wrong......
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
I'm not sure I understand your point. He has two service disconnecting means...that's fine. A single service disconnecting means isn't required.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The only way to "tap" the power is through a breaker so not a tap per NEC. If there were multiple feedthrough connectors that would be different.
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
230.71(A) The service disconnecting means...shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers...
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Your verbiage is a bit askew (to me). The two breakers as-is requires both to be flipped off to disco the service. In your words "has two service disconnecting means" to me sounds like two OCPD's in series where either one could disco the service (or like a non-fused disco switch + ocpd in series). As-is, the OCPD's are in fact paralleled onto SEC's via that panel, and to disco the service you need to throw two breakers, not one. Is this valid per NEC?
post #47 perhaps explains my confusion. So with 1 set of SEC's into a bus'd panel that has 6 OCPD's, do the sum of those 6 OCPD amps have to be less than max service amps?
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- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
Yes, that is valid per NEC.
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
It doesn't.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
230.91 and 230.92 suggests a single device for service ocpd.
NEC verbiage needs updating
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
230.91 doesn't say anything about quantity of devices.
230.90(A) Ex 3 says "Two to Six circuit breakers or sets of fuses shall be permitted as the overcurrent device to provide overload protection."
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FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
it says "device" , singular in grammar. I guess I would prefer the bus'd panel ("service equip") to have one inline disco (switch and/or OCPD) prior to the "up to 6" disco's that then feed out.
What about 2008 NEC 230.75? Does the panel meet that requirement?
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
Yes, and 230.90(A) Ex 3 says that 2-6 breakers or fuses shall be permitted as the overcurrent "device", singular in grammar.
The two breakers are both the Service Disconnecting Means and the Overcurrent Device required by 230.70 and 230.90(A).
The panel does meet the requirement of 230.75.
What do you gentlemen think of this email?
Good afternoon this is the second time I've had an inspector fail me for this installation and i'm looking for some clarification. The inspector stated I am violating 240.21. Clearly this is not a tap as per the NEC definitions is A conductor, other than a service conductor, that has. overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds. the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as. described elsewhere in 240.4
my argument is article 230. 90 (A)(1) Exp 3, specifically states Two to six circuit breakers or sets of fuses shall be permitted as the overcurrent device to provide the overload protection. The sum of the ratings of the circuit breakers or fuses shall be permitted to exceed the ampacity of the service conductors, provided the calculated load does not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.
the above exception depicts and clarifies the installation I have below please see attached photos. The conductors in the picture that land directly on the bus in the service switch that is rated for use as service equipment are directly coming from the utility size number 2 copper conductors
Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Good afternoon this is the second time I've had an inspector fail me for this installation and i'm looking for some clarification. The inspector stated I am violating 240.21. Clearly this is not a tap as per the NEC definitions is A conductor, other than a service conductor, that has. overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds. the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as. described elsewhere in 240.4
my argument is article 230. 90 (A)(1) Exp 3, specifically states Two to six circuit breakers or sets of fuses shall be permitted as the overcurrent device to provide the overload protection. The sum of the ratings of the circuit breakers or fuses shall be permitted to exceed the ampacity of the service conductors, provided the calculated load does not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.
the above exception depicts and clarifies the installation I have below please see attached photos. The conductors in the picture that land directly on the bus in the service switch that is rated for use as service equipment are directly coming from the utility size number 2 copper conductors
Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
- Status