In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

[lancehouston]

I live in Houston, inside the loop actually, and I'm planning on a pool. My neighbor has his above ground drop connected to his house. The wire is about 14ft in the air and just over the fence on his property.

Does anyone know the required distance that wire must be from the water's edge?

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

22.5 feet if it is a cable and 23 feet if it is an open wire service drop. This is from the NESC and all of the measurements are reproduced in the IPL Standards. Keep in mind that you are talking about an electric utility owned service drop and not a customer owned service drop so the NEC doesn't apply.

 

[russ]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

680.8 requires 10ft horizontal clearance, with an over all clearance of 22ft from the water level also. You have to be able to measure 22ft on an angle from the edge of the pool water to the overhead line.
I believe the NEC does pertain to power company overhead lines.
Maybe you can't make the power company move it's line, but the what NEC does say you can't put your pool within those distances.

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Russ, the NEC applies to customer owned service drops, not the 90.2(B)(5) service drops. The NESC applies in this situation and those rules must be followed.

The rules in 230.24 are for customer owned service drops and are there so that you can install them where you are actually installing a service drop. The rules in 680.8 are for the service drops installed under 230.24.

 

[russ]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

charlie

I'm not convinced

I have to disagree, I see nothing in 230 or 680 that says clearances in the NEC pertain to only customer owned service drops.

If that were so, what drops are mentioned in 230.24(B), especially the ones over public streets and alleys. These I don't believe would be any customer owned ones.

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Russ, look at 90.2(B)(5) and the owner of the service drop. Also look at the definition of service point. If we own it, it is on our side of the service point and the rules of the NESC apply. If the service point is at the pole, the customer owns it and the rules in the NEC apply.

If it is our toy, we get to make and enforce the rules. Those rules are in the NESC and our electric service manuals.

 

[iwire]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

If the NEC covered the power company's aerial cables the conductor sizes would be larger.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

When it really gets interesting, though, is when the utility installs a single 4/0 when, say, parallel 250's are called for, and we have to ground to the NEC standard. Figure that one out...

I just wish you guys would play fair...

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

George, we do play fair. We have our wire sized for the projected load as we have estimated it and it is in free air. On top of that, we guarantee the drop forever even if the load increases, do you guarantee you work for that time period?

I just wish you guys would play fair and guarantee your work forever even if the load increases.

 

[russ]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

charlie

I agree the local AHJ has no authority over the POCO. AT the same time am I am not relieved of any obligation that would violate NEC clearances.
Just because the power company owns an overhead, I can,t ignore the clearance rules, for over a pool, over a flat roof, over a pitched roof, or near a window to name a few.

 

[iwire]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Originally posted by russ:
charlie

I agree the local AHJ has no authority over the POCO. AT the same time am I am not relieved of any obligation that would violate NEC clearances.
Just because the power company owns an overhead, I can,t ignore the clearance rules, for over a pool, over a flat roof, over a pitched roof, or near a window to name a few.

I do not understand how can you enforce what is not under your authority.

Would you make them move the house as you can't make the power company move the wire?

 

[pierre]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

"680.8(A) Power. With respect to service drop conductors"...

I agree with Russ. If the pool cannot meet the table requirment, the service drop can be relocated, or the pool will not be installed.

The same for 230.24, the Utility may have requirements that differ somewhat, but we will install the service drop higher to fulfil these requirements.
For instance. The minimum height requirement for Con Edison (POCO) in our area is 12 feet from grade. If in the span to the house from the street pole, the service drop travels over a flat roof and has less than 8 feet clearance from the roof, yet is still at least 12 feet from the grade, it violates the NEC. Therefore we either install a mast or attach it higher on the building structure to provide proper clearance over the flat roof.

The NEC may not have control over the size of conductors, but location once it enters the premises I say it does supercede the NESC for locations.

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Pierre and Russ, the NESC has rules that cover those instances. Why would they have those rules in the NESC if we were to follow the NEC? The service point is the point of demarcation . . . period. As far as the additional clearance required by Con Ed, the NESC requires more clearance that the NEC with exceptions. They are enforcing the Code (NESC) correctly.

I do agree that you can back door your authority and require a customer to do something the NESC doesn't require. Inspectors have been doing that for years and getting away with it. I contend that you don't really have the authority to enforce on our side of the service point.

Now, what do you tell someone if you require them to raise the point of attachment to meet the NEC and then we tell them that they are still too low because the wrong Code was enforced by the misinformed inspector?

 

[russ]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

charlie and Bob

If I enforce or is it not enforce the nec, I should ignore any clearances that have to do with a line owned by the power company.

If a home owner installs his pool directly under a 12 ft high drop it's none of my business.
Same could be said if he puts on a flat roof addition and the line is six inches above it.
Also he could put in a window with the drop right next to or maybe two inces under the center of the window. If it's not covered by the NEC I say nothing and wait to see if the poco ever notices it.

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Russ, that is essentially true. If you wish to enforce the Code, enforce the correct one. The rules in the NESC are similar to the NEC but they are not the same. For instance where the service drop is hitting a through the roof raceway on a roof that is not readily accessible (slope doesn't matter), the service drop must clear the roof by 18 in. where it is within 6 ft of the mast, after that, the clearance is 3' and there is no limit about how much of it crosses the roof.

All I am saying is that the NESC covers our service, not the NEC. If you are going to enforce the Code, enforce the correct one.

 

[russ]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

charlie

Last words, at least on this one, then I'll go on with life.
If as a city we have never adopted the NESC as code, I don't see how I could enforce it.

Merry Christmas, to you, Bob, pierre, and George

[ December 21, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: russ ]

 

[iwire]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Originally posted by russ:
Merry Christmas

Right back at ya Russ, happy holidays.

 

[charlie]

Re: In Houston - Distance a Utility wire from Pool's edge

Russ, some jurisdictions adopt different codes. Indiana adopts the NESC as it is written and the NEC with the Indiana amendments. California adopts their own version of the NESC (it is not the NESC) and the NEC (I assume it has amendments). I would assume that Illinois adopts the NESC and I don't have a clue about whether you have state wide adoption of the NEC or whether it is by jurisdiction. The bottom line is that I can not imagine a US electric utility not using the NESC (or a similar standard) for pole line construction or for any other electric utility operations.

I do agree that we have beaten this horse long enough. From my standpoint, it is important that you see my viewpoint whether or not you agree with me which is not as important. I also trust that I haven't crossed the line and made you or anyone else mad at me through this discussion.

Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year to you and yours, not just Russ but all forum participants.